Thoughts on Covid 19

[Ferrariman]

I'm not quite sure how to start this topic. Truth be told it's something I've been avoiding simply because maybe it's too controversial?  Nevertheless, I consider the members here adult enough to be able to handle it intelligently so here goes.

The inspiration behind this post came to me while watching TV the other night.  Some of my regular shows have returned and while settling down to watch (and hoping to escape reality for just a little while), I realized that it's just not possible.  Covid has affected every part of our lives and unless you live in a cave on the top of Mt. Everest, you HAVE been affected by it.  Every single TV show recognizes it and I don't know if that's good or bad. 

On the bad side, it just doesn't allow us any peace. It doesn't allow us any sense of normalcy if for even just an hour or 2.   And I hate the term "new normal" because there's nothing normal about it!

On the good side I think it's a good way to get the message out there. Everyone watches TV and if it gets people to wake up and take responsibility, that's a  good thing. I say this because in my opinion we are in this situation because of, to put it bluntly, "stupid people". It's been proven that something as simple as wearing a mask can considerably stop. or at least slow the virus and yet what do we see? Protests by anti-mask groups, large gatherings, house parties and just plain careless behavior.  It's the simplest little thing we can do and yet the number of daily infections has climbed to over 100,000 a day. Just today the number was over 150,000!  And with Thanksgiving 2 weeks away, the airlines are reporting a huge increase in travel bookings. I just don't get it. 

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the topic. If you've lost a loved one and need to vent, we're here to listen.  I only ask that we DO NOT bring politics into the discussion!  I consider myself to be very lucky so far and my sincere condolences to anyone who has lost a family member, co-worker, friend or relative.  Thanks for listening.

Stay safe

Wear a mask

[Tom]

Fully agree Lou!

Same here in Europe. The majority has been jeopardized by a minority of people who deny any risk avoidance just because they cannot waive some fun (e.g. restaurant visits, etc. ) for a while. 

As many know we had a major terror attack in Vienna last week on Monday with 4 death civilians and 20 injured.  The Covid angle to this is that government hd announced a "light" lock down (closure for restaurants, bars and all recreational firms like gymns and theaters) to start last week´s Tuesday midnight. What did people do? Yes, because it had 20C they all went out to celebrate before the curfew hits. Not only that helped the ISIS killer to maximize body count by killing people sitting in front of restaurants with an AK47 , but also we have exploding numbers today one week after that last celebration and will go into severe lockdown next week with all shops&schools closed except supermarkets and pharmacies. 

So, yes, I also would like to go out and have a normal life as I was used to be. But, in interest of all people, I reduced my social life to a minimum to help bringing numbers down. Thus I cannot accept people who deny the effect of Covid (mostly people without any medical or statistical education) and think going out to bars and discos is a human right under any circumstances, at all cost. 

Unfortunately, I have one Covidiot even in my own family - a cousin who travels all the time with his small kids and goes to all parties available because he uses to say: "We cannot avoid infection anyway, so we want to have fun and we all have to die anyway sooner or later ..."

Luckily, none of my family has been harmed by Covid so far.

Bottom line: Covid is bad but it has a good side: it mercilessly exposes those reckless people who are egoists and will rather risk other people´s lifes (and their own) rather than act responsibly. Now we know where they are and can keep away from them and focus on real friends. At least, that is what I will do.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Tom

[miamijimf]

I wear a mask, social distance etc and consider people who don't irresponsible.  Good point Tom, it teaches us a lot about people.  I think we will eventually overcome the pandemic, we already have a vaccine close to final approval and distribution.  The other good news is that in the US the death rate has dropped by 80% due to excellent medical care.  Also I don't get upset when the positive tests go up - the more testing, the more positive cases.  The survival rate of all those who test positive is 95.5%.  But of course we should still be careful.  And in the mean time - not lock everything down.  A total lock down in the US would never work.  I think my countrymen and women have kind of an independent streak and a natural distrust of government (not a total negative).  It would be immediately challenged in court and the challenge would succeed.  Lots of States and communities would refuse to comply and it would start protests and demonstrations.  Lock down's are a poor idea generally, it hurts economies, people lose their jobs etc and creates its own set of problems, mental and otherwise.  After the lockdown is over the virus is still there.  If you look at US history we have overcome a lot worse, suffered and bled for prosperity, our freedom and the freedom of the world - do we want to lose this or any part of this because we are afraid of getting sick?  My bottom line is that we just need to live safely with it stay positive and trust medical science (Pretty successful if you look at world history) to quickly find a workable solution.  Thanks for the opportunity to sound off about this.

Edited November 13, 2020 by miamijimf

[Ferrariman]

21 hours ago, Tom said:

Luckily, none of my family has been harmed by Covid so far.

Good to hear you're staying safe Tom.  I'm retired and my wife recently left her job (before the pandemic) so again. I consider us very lucky!  We don't go anywhere except the occasional drive thru for coffee or a burger. Groceries are ordered online and delivered.  We don't associate with anyone. Not even family. Thank god that technology keeps us in touch.

[Ferrariman]

7 minutes ago, miamijimf said:

Thanks for the opportunity to sound off about this.

I think we all need to vent a bit Jim . Hopefully it will help us all get through it a little easier.

[Christine]

As I'm working as a geriatric nurse I am affected by the Covid measures every day. We have to wear masks while working and our clients  are asked to do so, too. Some of them are unable to wear masks because of dementia our lung deseases. In this cases we have to wear FFP2 masks. They are not very comfortable and after about zehn minutes it aches behind my ears, but I still wear these masks to take care of my old clients and myself.

As Tom said before, in Europe live many people who don't accept the restrictions because of Covid and some of them still celebrates partys at home or meet hundreds of other people for demontrations. I can't understand this. What I can't understand is that restaurants are closed now. It's proved that none of the people who have Covid gotinfected in restaurants. Many of the restaurant owners had paid a lot of money to make their restaurants "Covid safe". Now it was all for nothing.

I think Covid will accompany us for many years, even though it is talked about a vaccine that allegedly shall be available next year or so. I'm scaptical about that. Not about the vaccine, but I won't be one of the first to test it.

[Tom]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Christine:

What I can't understand is that restaurants are closed now. It's proved that none of the people who have Covid gotinfected in restaurants. 

I can explain that as I‘m in the data analytics business. 
The highest Covid Potential Cluster accelerator and spread risk we found is when people randomly meet in closed rooms and this is all kinds of social or recreational places like restaurants where guests stay longer than 15 minutes but change every hour or faster but the waiter stays the same for hours.

Less risk is where the same people meet regularly wg in office or within family. And here comes the punchline: if you avoid public places with other randomly meeting people AND others are doing the same the Virus will get extinct quite quickly as it will not find new hosts for spreading (if you are already infected it normally takes 2-3 weeks until you recover and cannot infect others).

but if only one person in a family goes occasionally to restaurants or parties, risk is high to pick it up to there (US studies show that talking in rooms is highest spreading factor for aerosols with COVID) and infect all others.

Covid does not originate in families. Covid originated in public places and then gets into families from there. Especially travels are risky because there even people from distant places meet randomly. Thus, Ferrariman‘s hint on Thanksgiving flight bookings gives me the willies...

Thus all public places should be avoided (supermarkets are less risk because you don’t stay long and everyone is on the move) even if they do not seem risky. If every one did that for a few weeks everywhere, Covid would off the planet in no time.

[Christine]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Tom:

Thus all public places should be avoided (supermarkets are less risk because you don’t stay long and everyone is on the move) even if they do not seem risky. If every one did that for a few weeks everywhere, Covid would off the planet in no time.

My experiences with supermarkets are horrible in context with Covid.  Some people stay long in the supermarket and talk to other people because it's the only place where they meet someone. Often youmeet peple there who haven't heard about distance rules. They come very close to you and at the checkout they squeeze past you because they really want to get the cigarettes. 

Daily the neighbours above me have many different visitors and they aren't family members. So I think Covid IS in familys, but with this people have different opinios.

[pahonu]

My view is perhaps a little different than many because of personal experience very early on.  Our neighbors, two doors down, died from COVID back in April.  Granted, they were an elderly couple, but they were still reasonably active, and we had known them for over 20 years, since 1999.  Back then they were very active and my wife and I had gone on their boat with them several times, until they sold it a few years ago because of advancing age.

It was a very scary thing back then as we knew so little about the disease.  Needless to say, my wife and I became extremely cautious and still are.  It is still difficult and angering to hear people say this is just a flu and ignore simple safety precautions like mask wearing and social distancing.  In the US now, community spread is being driven more by small group gatherings than anything else.  COVID doesn’t make exceptions because it’s a holiday or family event.

It is very good news that the death rate has dropped as doctors have learned to treat many of the most serious cases.  However, long term effects can be very serious and are often ignored by many.  My wife has a coworker of many years who had a pretty bad case, but didn’t require hospitalization. She still has severe fatigue and headaches frequently and this was also back in April!  She was a very active person and has had her life change dramatically as a result of this.  She’s in her 40’s.  It’s scary and very real.
 

 

[Ferrariman]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

 What I can't understand is that restaurants are closed now. It's proved that none of the people who have Covid got infected in restaurants. Many of the restaurant owners had paid a lot of money to make their restaurants "Covid safe". Now it was all for nothing.

My heart goes out to restaurant owners and my wife and I miss going to them. We've actually become good friends with some of the waiters at places we would frequent. We stay in touch with some of them but we haven't been to a restaurant since very early March and have no intentions of visiting one anytime soon.  It's just not worth taking a chance.  Contrary to what you say (and I'm not doubting you) here in Toronto over 50% of cases have been traced back to visiting a restaurant in the 2 weeks prior to testing positive.   I agree there are ways to open safely but at 65 I'm just not comfortable enough to chance it.

[mjcmmv]

I agree-it's good to vent a little. Thanks for starting this off, Ferrariman!

My family and i weathered the NY explosion of infection in March and by the fall, things started to slow down a bit. But now, the infection rate is climbing again, especially since the weather is getting colder and people are being forced indoors. Now, the holidays are almost here. My family members have already decided to do a Zoom Thanksgiving which sounds sad, but necessary. I can't bear to think of what Christmas will be like. 

Contact tracing is key, but difficult to implement since many people don't like to give names of people they've been around. Mask wearing is good in NYC and Long Island, where I live, but there are still a few who are careless, or defiant. For the most part, I don't go out much. I do curb-side pick up for groceries, medications, and of course, some wine! 

It's good to "talk" to everyone! I hope you all stay safe and healthy!

 

 

[jpaul1]

there's lot to say about this. Covid is still quite a mysterious disease. but we know few things already. first it has an incredibly high degree of contagiosity. this is why i think lockdowns are good measures. because when you see the US where very few had been done. the hospitals are now all coming to saturation. and this is where the danger is. in a situation where people die on the sidewalks. Australia took some of the most drastic measures with several months confinements. and a couple of days ago, they got their first Covid free day with 0 cases. so lockdowns work

then we know some people deal well with the illness, while others for some reasons get into dramatic situations, and sometimes die. i was watching a documentary a couple of days ago. it was the interview of a young high level rugbyman. the guy was healthy as one can get, and he was saying i was at a point where i said goodbye to life. so yeah, this is a dangerous disease, definitely

another thing we know, is that if the disease doesn't kill you it can leave you with severe body injuries, with consequences on medium, and long term

and finally we know the mask, and social distancing things

so in the end i'd say this is definitely a disease to be taken seriously whatever the consequences. because it's just deadly. there's a story here of a teenager who during 1st confinement used to go outside whenever he wanted. He didn't die, but his mom did (from C19). i think it sums it all. if you respect your granma, granpa, or friends or family who are at higher risk like diabetes, cancer.. you have to behave like a responsible person. and i'm among the ones who applaud when i see cops taking out manu military a person without mask from a public space

i'm really curious to see how in the end Covid will remodel our world. because it obviously will. but i think some good things can come out of this. more work at home, short circuit commerce..

[miamijimf]

Can't help but throw in a few more thoughts.  Ref lockdowns - The cure should not be worse than the disease.  I know a number of businesses that have had to close their doors permanently because of the virus.  That's great that Australia got 0 cases after a total lockdown but isn't it a little too early to be sure that the virus won't resurface?  Also I don't think we have enough evidence yet to be sure that the infection has permanent lasting effects.  It's a new virus remember and a lot of the people who got serious cases had problems before they got infected.  It takes time to compile meaningful health statistics.  The international community should not let China get away with consciously spreading the virus.  It has done serious harm to the Western World's economy.  If we don't do something, what's to prevent China or another country from doing it again?   I don't know what should be done but something short of war of course.  I believe that all life is precious and a gift from God but the 1917-18 flu pandemic was worse in many ways. The world's population is still here and bigger than ever.

Edited November 13, 2020 by miamijimf

[jpaul1]

i prefer a bankrupcy to a loss of a parent, or friend. i repeat we're talking of letting people die on sidewalks. this is the goal of our society, to die in the street or in a corridor like a dog in total distress. Knowing you could be saved but you won't because the bed you should be in is occupied? if these things ever happen, you'll get riots everywhere. i prefer a recession, even a massive one, but with living people. also think of all the healthcare crews. these are not eternal, they have limits, and once these limits will get reached. it's all the hospital system that will fall apart. so yeah the economy might be put under heavy stress, but i think it's the best solution

because if hospitals can't do their job anymore, in the end you'll get an insurrection. 100% guaranteed. the scientic consciensus is clear about this. to avoid hospitals from being overwhelmed you have no other choice than lockdown sometimes. these are high level scientists, who have studied the possible scenarios during their whole life

today i watched a stuff on an American news channel. a girl. she received two calls on the same day. one hello your mom has just died (from Covid). a bit later another one. hello you granpa has died. it is horrible. is that the society we want

Edited November 13, 2020 by jpaul1

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, miamijimf said:

Can't help but throw in a few more thoughts.  Ref lockdowns - The cure should not be worse than the disease.  I know a number of businesses that have had to close their doors permanently because of the virus.  That's great that Australia got 0 cases after a total lockdown but isn't it a little too early to be sure that the virus won't resurface?  Also I don't think we have enough evidence yet to be sure that the infection has permanent lasting effects.  It's a new virus remember and a lot of the people who got serious cases had problems before they got infected.  It takes time to compile meaningful health statistics.  The international community should not let China get away with consciously spreading the virus.  It has done serious harm to the Western World's economy.  If we don't do something, what's to prevent China or another country from doing it again?   I don't know what should be done but something short of war of course.  I believe that all life is precious and a gift from God but the 1917-18 flu pandemic was worse in many ways. The world's population is still here and bigger than ever.

The 17-18 pandemic was much worse than this. As were the many typhus, cholera, and other outbreaks that used to happen with surprising regularity. I also don't think people outside the US understand how much of the economy here has shifted to the service sector...the very people either put out of work or declared 'essential' and forced to come in and work in often terrible conditions. I know my sector's considered essential, but the pay remains unchanged even though we're exposed to this stuff every day. Lockdowns in the long run shift more money to the large corporations and cripple or destroy smaller, local businesses that are often the backbone of smaller communities (in the US anyhow...I've lived in Europe so I know the situation can be somewhat different there). Do we want to be the kind of society that sees people like Jeff Bezos get even richer while producing nothing while stores that have been in the same family for generations are forced to close forever and their workers cast adrift? Or where Silicon Valley millionaires can "work from home" while minimum wage shelf stockers are potentially exposed to COVID every day they come to work? I won't even get into selective enforcement...

Edited November 13, 2020 by Robbie C.

[jpaul1]

it makes me laugh a bit when i hear that Jeff Bezos thing. Amazon gave more than 150M to associations. they even created a system where associations create wishlists, where you can buy stuff to your association (i sent a feeding bottle heater to Florida squirrels ^^). i got to Amazon yesterday. first thing i saw was a huge banner onto the site saying buy French, Amazon is launching a big program to sustain , and help small and medium French enterprises

if you do a lockdown you increase the chances for a vaccine to get ready (and well tested), and you get less people in hospitals in the first phase of the pandemic when the crews don't know the good procedures that work. avoiding lot of deaths

lockdown doesn't mean absolute lockdown. i have lot of small commerces here that are open. like perfume, and make up shops. they just blocked the entrance, and people buy like in a drive in, on foot. only unecessary stuff is closed like restaurants, and ironmongers. even though restaurants can still work if they switch to take away food

working from home is not a 'rich' thing. anyone who has a 40€ cam can do it

[Ferrariman]

Lockdowns definitely have their pluses and minuses.   I've seen this cycle over and over.

1. they do a lockdown 

2.  numbers decrease 

3.  things are looking good so what do we do next?

4. We slowly reopen in several stages

5. and then those previously mentioned "stupid people", thinking everything is ok,  return to their ways

6. and the numbers start to go up again

  If everyone, and I mean everyone! 100% would take this seriously we could beat this thing in a matter of a few months, even without a vaccine. But we all know that's never going to happen. So what's the answer?

[Robbie C.]

6 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

it makes me laugh a bit when i hear that Jeff Bezos thing. Amazon gave more than 150M to associations. they even created a system where associations create wishlists, where you can buy stuff to your association (i sent a feeding bottle heater to Florida squirrels ^^). i got to Amazon yesterday. first thing i saw was a huge banner onto the site saying buy French, Amazon is launching a big program to sustain , and help small and medium French enterprises

if you do a lockdown you increase the chances for a vaccine to get ready (and well tested), and you get less people in hospitals in the first phase of the pandemic when the crews don't know the good procedures that work. avoiding lot of deaths

lockdown doesn't mean absolute lockdown. i have lot of small commerces here that are open. like perfume, and make up shops. they just blocked the entrance, and people buy like in a drive in, on foot. only unecessary stuff is closed like restaurants, and ironmongers. even though restaurants can still work if they switch to take away food

working from home is not a 'rich' thing. anyone who has a 40€ cam can do it

Perhaps in France anyone can work from home, but you can’t stock shelves from home. How do you think your Amazon stuff gets to you? Amazon was among the worst initially about protecting their workers. They put on a pretty public face when they need to, but it makes me laugh when people defend them by pointing out their charity stuff. It’s a drop in the bucket when compared to what they bring in and doesn’t offset in my mind the damage they do. 
And I’m not going to go near the elephant in the room. 

[Vicefan7777]

My occupation requires me to come into contact with hundreds of persons each week.  I am thankful Covid has barely touched my community.  People here are taking the wearing of masks serious.  My wife could barely breath a few weeks ago.  I had to take her to my local hospital where she underwent a breathing treatment and got tested for Covid.  Test results came back negative.  She got put on multiple meds and is doing much better now.  

I too was one of those who believed last spring this sickness would disappear with the heat of summer.  I admit I was wrong. However what still bothers me is what two of my customers told me.  They are nurses with over 50 years of experience between them.  They told me they have seen false reporting of deaths being listed as Covid because the hospitals they work for will get more insurance money.  So what is the REAL death numbers?  I think we may never know. 

Finally I do believe in the power of modern medicine and the ability to find a vaccine.  We as a human race will survive this. 

[Robbie C.]

13 minutes ago, Vicefan7777 said:

My occupation requires me to come into contact with hundreds of persons each week.  I am thankful Covid has barely touched my community.  People here are taking the wearing of masks serious.  My wife could barely breath a few weeks ago.  I had to take her to my local hospital where she underwent a breathing treatment and got tested for Covid.  Test results came back negative.  She got put on multiple meds and is doing much better now.  

I too was one of those who believed last spring this sickness would disappear with the heat of summer.  I admit I was wrong. However what still bothers me is what two of my customers told me.  They are nurses with over 50 years of experience between them.  They told me they have seen false reporting of deaths being listed as Covid because the hospitals they work for will get more insurance money.  So what is the REAL death numbers?  I think we may never know. 

Finally I do believe in the power of modern medicine and the ability to find a vaccine.  We as a human race will survive this. 

That's one of the challenges with numbers for COVID. It's fairly easy to class just about anything as a COVID death, even if it wasn't. And there's also the question of cancer treatments being pushed off because they didn't want people in hospitals, along with other treatment. For some of that, at least in the US, I have to say I think the media bears some responsibility. They run scare shows telling people emergency rooms are death traps for COVID and then two weeks later wonder why people who have heart issues (strokes, etc.) aren't coming to ERs.

One of the biggest challenges with COVID is the fact that most people in the First World have NO experience with any kind of widespread disease aside from perhaps the common cold. This is a distinctly modern phenomenon. I could bore you with things like Civil War regiments that lost half their strength (1,200 to maybe 600) in the first winter of the war from things like cholera and the measles. This happened with disturbing regularity in regiments formed from mostly rural cadres. Why? They'd never been exposed to those diseases while their urban counterparts (who were on the whole physically weaker due to many factors) had and could survive exposure again.

I didn't think COVID would prove to be as persistent as it has, but like others I worry more than in the end the cure may be worse than the disease.

[ivoryjones]

3 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

Lockdowns definitely have their pluses and minuses.   I've seen this cycle over and over.

1. they do a lockdown 

2.  numbers decrease 

3.  things are looking good so what do we do next?

4. We slowly reopen in several stages

5. and then those previously mentioned "stupid people", thinking everything is ok,  return to their ways

6. and the numbers start to go up again

  If everyone, and I mean everyone! 100% would take this seriously we could beat this thing in a matter of a few months, even without a vaccine. But we all know that's never going to happen. So what's the answer?

I believe that really portraits the way it works on most if not all societies. Here where I live, it's even hard to say in which part of this cycle we're in right now, as curves look comparatively "flat" (either way) in comparison with other countries.

I'd say we're on stages "4" or "5", but then again our numbers decrease were never as strong as in Europe. So we get discussions like "are we still on 1st wave or not?", "will the 2nd wave only come after we get truly expressive numbers decrease?".

I am really having a hard time getting the local big picture.

[miamijimf]

Not to minimize the seriousness of covid but don't forget that we have made progress in the US.   The death rate has dropped by 80% due to excellent medical care.  Don't get upset when the positive tests go up - the more testing, the more positive cases.  The survival rate of all those who test positive is 95.5%.  Pretty high.  Most importantly a vaccine is not that far away.  That's the solution, not lockdowns.  For all the above stated reasons, they don't and will not work, especially in the US.  Of course you can say going bankrupt is better than death but if you look at in terms of the numbers of people adversely affected, lockdowns have hurt far more people.  Just look at the unemployment rate.   The pain caused by breadwinners losing their jobs or the number of suicides or family problems caused by lockdowns is impossible to calculate.  Small businesses are hit hardest while big corporations prosper.  Guess what is the biggest employer in the US? - small businesses.  The employees of big companies do not benefit.  I personally know some Wal-Mart workers whose stores are thriving.  Yet they have been forced to switch to part-time just recently.  Lots of people and organizations are living and functioning as safely as possible with covid.  That's what we all need to do.  Don't live in fear.

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by miamijimf

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, Vicefan7777 said:

My occupation requires me to come into contact with hundreds of persons each week.  I am thankful Covid has barely touched my community.  People here are taking the wearing of masks serious.  My wife could barely breath a few weeks ago.  I had to take her to my local hospital where she underwent a breathing treatment and got tested for Covid.  Test results came back negative.  She got put on multiple meds and is doing much better now.  

I too was one of those who believed last spring this sickness would disappear with the heat of summer.  I admit I was wrong. However what still bothers me is what two of my customers told me.  They are nurses with over 50 years of experience between them.  They told me they have seen false reporting of deaths being listed as Covid because the hospitals they work for will get more insurance money.  So what is the REAL death numbers?  I think we may never know. 

Finally I do believe in the power of modern medicine and the ability to find a vaccine.  We as a human race will survive this. 

two things. first if these nurses have really witnessed these things, why they don't tell the medias. medias whoever they are won't put under the carpet a true information. second personnally i'd be careful when saying these things. because people working in healthcare are risking their lives everyday, and are working extremelly, really hard job/duty. so saying these things is a bit like saying these people are abusers, and IMHO is a bit beyond the yellow line :/

47 minutes ago, ivoryjones said:

I believe that really portraits the way it works on most if not all societies. Here where I live, it's even hard to say in which part of this cycle we're in right now, as curves look comparatively "flat" (either way) in comparison with other countries.

I'd say we're on stages "4" or "5", but then again our numbers decrease were never as strong as in Europe. So we get discussions like "are we still on 1st wave or not?", "will the 2nd wave only come after we get truly expressive numbers decrease?".

I am really having a hard time getting the local big picture.

don't forget 7 most important. after several lockdowns, and after having minimized the death rates, now we know better how to treat incoming patients

46 minutes ago, miamijimf said:

Not to minimize the seriousness of covid but don't forget that we have made progress in the US.   The death rate has dropped by 80% due to excellent medical care.  Don't get upset when the positive tests go up - the more testing, the more positive cases.  The survival rate of all those who test positive is 95.5%.  Pretty high.  Most importantly a vaccine is not that far away.  That's the solution, not lockdowns.  For all the above stated reasons, they don't and will not work, especially in the US.  Of course you can say going bankrupt is better than death but if you look at in terms of the numbers of people adversely affected, lockdowns have hurt far more people.  Just look at the unemployment rate.   The pain caused by breadwinners losing their jobs or the number of suicides or family problems caused by lockdowns is impossible to calculate.  Small businesses are hit hardest while big corporations prosper.  Guess what is the biggest employer in the US? - small businesses.  The employees of big companies do not benefit.  I personally know some Wal-Mart workers whose stores are thriving.  Yet they have been forced to switch to part-time just recently.  Lots of people and organizations are living and functioning as safely as possible with covid.  That's what we all need to do.  Don't live in fear.

 

honestly i don't know where these suicide theories come from. even maybe for people living in an apartment with no garden they can go outside an hour per day. what is one hour when we know it saves hundreds of lives. and there are tons of things to do at home. work, read, play instrument. go to forums, sleep, i mean what is one, or two months in a life, when you know you're gonna save thousands of innocent lives

you say the people tested lives in 95% of the cases jim. first you need to add all the people affected over a long term. for those we don't know yet if their problems will be sorted out. these may be considered as handicapped. and even if living, is not what i'd call an enviable situation. then you also need to keep in mind the contagiosity of the thing. we are not talking of 95% of a 'normal' disease pool, but more of 5% of the USA population here. the numbers can't be ignored. normal flu 61k deads in the US over 12 months. Covid 244k after only 8 months (the worst probably yet to come)

 

now take a second, and please consider this. your kid (i do not wish this to anyone of course. I'm giving an example) is ill. or your wife gets Covid. you bring him/her to the hospital. and she dies in a corridor because all the beds are full. what would you think internally. saving the economy was worth it. honestly i don't think it is

[miamijimf]

jpaul1, my friend in Vice, if you had ever taken debate in school you would know that hypothetical arguments involving your opponents family are both worthless and inappropriate.  

There is no solid evidence that recovery from covid leads to permanent medical problems.  One or two cases of lasting problems, if they are verified, are not sufficient evidence.  It will take a long time to know for certain, remember this is a new disease.

Also many people consider their job or profession who they are, identify with it and take it very personally when they lose their job.  Don't know for certain how many suicides are attributable to the virus but it would not be surprising if some were.  We will never know for sure.

I don't believe the worst is yet to come, I have faith in medical science.  In the unlikely event that the the virus should mutate and become more deadly, God forbid,  we could always expand our medical facilities like we did in NY city and elsewhere.  If you remember all those extra facilities went basically unused.  Regardless the human race will still be around for a while.

Your friend, seriously,  Jim

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, miamijimf said:

#1 jpaul1, my friend in Vice, if you had ever taken debate in school you would know that hypothetical arguments involving your opponents family are both worthless and inappropriate.  

#2 There is no solid evidence that recovery from covid leads to permanent medical problems.  One or two cases of lasting problems, if they are verified, are not sufficient evidence.  It will take a long time to know for certain, remember this is a new disease.

#3 Also many people consider their job or profession who they are, identify with it and take it very personally when they lose their job.  Don't know for certain how many suicides are attributable to the virus but it would not be surprising if some were.  We will never know for sure.

#4 I don't believe the worst is yet to come, I have faith in medical science.  In the unlikely event that the the virus should mutate and become more deadly, God forbid,  we could always expand our medical facilities like we did in NY city and elsewhere.  If you remember all those extra facilities went basically unused.  Regardless the human race will still be around for a while.

Your friend, seriously,  Jim

#1 jim, i wasn't trying to aim or hurt anyone. but for me any argument is good to say as long as it leads to the truth. And in that case i was enumerating a fact. What i said can happen, this is a fact. you can ignore it, i don't

#2 i heard dozens of such cases. if the virus doesn't let you handicapped permanently it can get you handicapped over a long, or medium period. this will have a cost

#3 no one can predict the future. you're not the one you are by your own wish, but by the grace

#4 jim my friend you can't tell you have faith in science, and ignore what science says. any serious scientist will tell you that even with the vaccine the USA are far from the exit. before the vaccine was announced scientists were talking of around 450k deaths in the USA. the vaccine has been poorly tested. and may be not available before months. no one can tell if it will be sufficient. also you say if the SHTF we can open facilities. Can you explain to me why medics without borders are backuping the US heathcare personel right now. there's not a single day where i see on news a state saying it has reached, or it will reach the red line very soon. jim my friend, i'm not trying to 'win a battle'. i'm just saying please don't ignore the facts

one last thing, look at this about lockdowns (just enumerating numbers):

USA (332M pop.): 0 confinements, 245k deads, 10.8M infected

France (67M pop.): 2 confinements (2nd started recently), 30.4k deads, 1.95M infected

proportionnally we have 96k deads less than you, almost 100k! 100k good and innocent US citizens

 

wish you the best for you, and your family jim. Cheers. Stay safe fellow vicers

Edited November 15, 2020 by jpaul1