Thoughts on Covid 19

[jpaul1]

13 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I think you need to be very careful about labeling people mentally ill. Many would say the same of you for rejecting a vaccine based on some invented worst case scenarios. But I'll leave you to that.

how do you know i live in an area where the situation is such, that not taking the vaccine in its early stage would be ethically wrong

i sincerely hope you think someone who rejects the existence of covid, someone who believes in qanon, or someone who believes the bigfoot interacted with the US election is a ill person who needs help. because if the US hospitals are in the s.. they are right now, it's solely because of all these c..t theories. I hope your agree with this

[Robbie C.]

Not everyone who doesn't agree with the masking mandates believes in QAnon (some may, but not all). You seem very comfortable making sweeping judgements about people. Notice I said "seem" to account for complications of the internet and so on. What I observe most in this is the ethical fluidity of many people, especially those in power. It's apparently one thing to issue a sweeping stay at home order yet quite another when it might apply to the powerful and their families. The same goes for masking and physical distancing. And let's not forget that, according to many, some rallies and protests are not considered COVID spreading events while others are. There is a level of hypocrisy under many of these things that frankly sickens me.

[pahonu]

Linked below is a very interesting and recent article I read from the Journal of the American Medical Association analyzing false beliefs about COVID-19.  It may apply here. It makes an interesting point about a lack of science literacy which is unfortunately high in the US, (as I’ve frequently discussed with my wife, a human anatomy and physiology teacher).  In particular, it draws an analogy between individuals with clinical neurological problems and their ability to discern reality, i.e. psychosis disorders or dementia, and people with poor science literacy being unable to form logical conclusions about complex scientific topics such as the pandemic.

The COVID pandemic has understandably pressured many of us to grapple with some incredibly complex concepts including vaccine development, virus transmission, immunological response to disease, and  therapeutics.  In more normal circumstances, most people don’t have to consider these complexities in an area so unfamiliar to them.  Many are struggling to arrive at logical conclusions given so much new information to process.  No on wants to feel they are ignorant or stupid, but the reality is that we all have areas of expertise and areas of deficit.  As everyone is trying to process this pandemic, these differences become apparent.  Sadly, they literally can carry life or death consequences.  Here’s the journal link:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2772693

 

[jpaul1]

this is an interesting article pahonu, but IMO it has some flaws. it says 'people without strong scientific knowledge can't or will have hard time reading an infections graph'. you don't need strong education degree to understand this. i mean that stuff is learnt in high school, maybe college. And according to the following graphs, the US has a pretty good education system. it seems to be in the upper bucket for years now

https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/adult-education-level.htm

https://ourworldindata.org/tertiary-education

according to that another graph the US literacy is not that bad in the US

https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp

[pahonu]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

this is an interesting article pahonu, but IMO it has some flaws. it says 'people without strong scientific knowledge can't or will have hard time reading an infections graph'. you don't need strong education degree to understand this. i mean that stuff is learnt in high school, maybe college. And according to the following graphs, the US has a pretty good education system. it seems to be in the upper bucket for years now

https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/adult-education-level.htm

https://ourworldindata.org/tertiary-education

according to that another graph the US literacy is not that bad in the US

https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp

Hey JPaul,

The journal article is referring specifically to scientific literacy rather than general literacy, and the US not great overall in this area.  There are very large disparities in education level among the various socio-economic groups in the US.  Statistical analysis is also lacking for many people.  Understanding charts and graphs that describe this data is not as easy for some people as it may seem.  According to the US Census Bureau, in 2019 28.1% of the population achieved no higher than a high school education, with approximately half of those not completing high school at all, while only 22.5% completed four years of college.  I can also attest to the lack of many of these skills from personal observation after 25 years of teaching in both the high school and community college setting.

I think the article is basically saying those with lower levels of education, lacking college or even finishing high school, are the most likely to form false beliefs about COVID-19, as they struggle with the complexity.  I’m sorry if it sounds elitist to some, but higher levels of education generally develop higher critical thinking skills and create a larger knowledge base for individuals who attend.  Individuals lacking in these areas turn to other methods to try and understand and, as the article also mentions, often social media leads to misinformation and even conspiracy theories about the topic.

[jpaul1]

On 12/6/2020 at 11:41 AM, Robbie C. said:

Not everyone who doesn't agree with the masking mandates believes in QAnon (some may, but not all). You seem very comfortable making sweeping judgements about people. Notice I said "seem" to account for complications of the internet and so on. What I observe most in this is the ethical fluidity of many people, especially those in power. It's apparently one thing to issue a sweeping stay at home order yet quite another when it might apply to the powerful and their families. The same goes for masking and physical distancing. And let's not forget that, according to many, some rallies and protests are not considered COVID spreading events while others are. There is a level of hypocrisy under many of these things that frankly sickens me.

well, you say i'm judging, actually i'm not judging i'm telling a fact. i could give you numbers. I won't because it'll turn the thing into politics. And i don't want it. but i can prove you with numbers that a very large part of the US population suffers from mental disease. I can send it to you in PM if you wish. i'm not judging, i'm sad, and worried about a country i love. because unlike Europe you don't know what it is to get invaded by a dictator. and i'm worried that you get tempted. first step of dictatorship is when you start believing its bull theories. Mein kampft is full of bull from A to Z. but this is another subject, i stop here

here's few data to confirm what i'm saying. over 2017-2018 20% of US adults population experienced a mental illness. 10% of US youth had a major depression, 60% of these were never been treated. over same period, 19% of US adults experienced a mental illness (1/5 of the total population). 40% of these never received a treatment. 25% of the ones who received help said their treatment didn't fit (constant since 2011)

https://www.mhanational.org/issues/state-mental-health-america

https://www.nami.org/mhstats

and don't be ashamed in France it's pretty much the same (no smiley)

 

second you tell me i'm judging, but i could talk to you of your statement about Amazon, and Jeff Bezos where you describe Jeff Bezos as the devil. i don't share that point of view at all, and could send the compliment back to you. i wore the mask since day 1, and now it's up to us to take a bad tested stuff because of all these ... (i'm staying very polite). it's a bit strong. i will take the vaccine of course if the local situation here forces me to do so, this is obvious. but from there to be threated like an hypocrit...This is why i think there should be more trials in the US. these anti maskers and company should be in jail

 

[vicegirl85]

On 12/4/2020 at 7:15 PM, Robbie C. said:

I find it interesting that people who are so strident about wearing masks are reluctant to accept a vaccine in its early days. If a vaccine is going to protect you and prevent spread far more efficiently than a mask will, isn't it beyond irresponsible to refuse a vaccine?

I know both people who are mistrustful of the COVID-19 vaccines that have been approved for emergency use in the US (so far, I believe that's the level of approval), and people who are anti-maskers.  And I get that people feel we don't know enough about long-term side effects of any of the vaccines currently in development/ in the approval process.  Actually, at this time and in the US, with current rates of transmission, masking will continue to be necessary and will do more to stop spread of the virus (by blocking droplet transmission) than the most effective vaccines (at 95%) for months to come.  Not sure if I'd agree it's beyond irresponsible to refuse vaccination, but because I know the medical professionals involved in performing several of the large-scale studies of the Pfizer vaccine, I do trust that the studies have been well-run.

Personally, I will take a vaccine as soon as it's possible for me to take it.  And I wear a mask if I leave my house.

  

[Tom]

I hope we won´t get into politics here. I agree with most commented up there and I think there is a common denominator across countries for Covid: the denial of common sense.

What we have been observing in the last few years already in the US, South America, Europe and APAC across many countries independently from Covid is the surge of populists who deny even the most basic things that are common sense or simply ignore every usance that exists but is not written explicitly somewhere (e.g. lay open your financial statements as a president) just to see how far they can go and to accumulate power by attracting masses. At the same time, discrepancy between the rich and the poor gets bigger, middle class is shrinking and people get susceptible to populists even if they tell obvious lies.

This situation was perfect fertilizer for Covid. Populists try to influence people with arguments that are so against common sense that nobody would have believed 10 years ago.

e.g.

are masks helpful or not? (yes they are even if it saves only 1% of infections)

don´t make a lockdown because it hampers economy (of course, but if we do not lock down the adverse effects on economy will be even worse)

lockdown are against personal freedom (yes of course, but dying because someeone who runs around with a contagious disease infected me is also not personal freedom)

 

I hope that we can get the worms back into the can, i.e. isolate those covidiots and rat lurers in politics, economy and private life who risk other people´s lives on purpose for either a cheap buck or a vote and get common sense back prevailing (.e.g if something makes sense against Covid because well respected experts say so then let´s do it, irrespective of my political agenda and irrespective if the expert is from my own political party or not).

In the end, Covid is like the issue politics vs. religion. You have to keep both separated in a modern state otherwise you´ll just get religious terrorism.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Tom

[pahonu]

10 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

well, you say i'm judging, actually i'm not judging i'm telling a fact. i could give you numbers. I won't because it'll turn the thing into politics. And i don't want it. but i can prove you with numbers that a very large part of the US population suffers from mental disease. I can send it to you in PM if you wish. i'm not judging, i'm sad, and worried about a country i love. because unlike Europe you don't know what it is to get invaded by a dictator. and i'm worried that you get tempted. first step of dictatorship is when you start believing its bull theories. Mein kampft is full of bull from A to Z. but this is another subject, i stop here

here's few data to confirm what i'm saying. over 2017-2018 20% of US adults population experienced a mental illness. 10% of US youth had a major depression, 60% of these were never been treated. over same period, 19% of US adults experienced a mental illness (1/5 of the total population). 40% of these never received a treatment. 25% of the ones who received help said their treatment didn't fit (constant since 2011)

https://www.mhanational.org/issues/state-mental-health-america

https://www.nami.org/mhstats

and don't be ashamed in France it's pretty much the same (no smiley)

 

second you tell me i'm judging, but i could talk to you of your statement about Amazon, and Jeff Bezos where you describe Jeff Bezos as the devil. i don't share that point of view at all, and could send the compliment back to you. i wore the mask since day 1, and now it's up to us to take a bad tested stuff because of all these ... (i'm staying very polite). it's a bit strong. i will take the vaccine of course if the local situation here forces me to do so, this is obvious. but from there to be threated like an hypocrit...This is why i think there should be more trials in the US. these anti makers and company should be in jail

 

I have a couple of thoughts on the topic mental illness.  The first is that it is still generally a stigma to be judged to have mental illness, even though it is widespread in the same way as physical illnesses are.  The number of people with physical illnesses such as hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, respiratory disease, and cancers of all types represents a huge part of the population.  If you add in asthma, allergies, and less severe chronic illnesses, the number becomes massive.  The same is true of mental illness.  It ranges from the severe such as schizophrenia, dementia, and other psychoses, to lesser illness like anxiety disorders, depression, bipolar illness, obsessive-compulsiveness, and even phobias.  All are mental illness and the majority of people have some form of one of them at some level, even if minor.

My point is that most people have some problems.  I’d go further and say few people have none of these physical or mental problems at some point in there lives, yet using the term mental illness seems to conjure up the most severe illness with many people, and thus the stigma. It’s a perspective quite common in the US.  I’m guilty myself.  My wife has some anxiety issues, none have proven problematic or debilitating.  She has medication for particularly stressful situations.  Based on my wife and children, though not diagnosed, I have some lower level obsessive-compulsiveness, again not problematic, but I can see it.  Because of the stigma we don’t use the term mental illness to describe this, but if we are honest with ourselves, that is indeed the case.  Just some thoughts.

[jpaul1]

sorry pahonu i don't have time to do the research right now. i'll try to answer to it later

just wanted to tell you that Arielle, as well as 200 french artists will get vaccinated. and so do i. i think regarding the actual flows in hospitals we don't have the choice

Edited January 7, 2021 by jpaul1

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Personally, I'll take the vaccine when I'm able to. Heck, when I was 13-15 years old, I took monthly allergy shots (ow!). Not only that, I had to bike to the doctor's office and my arm always swelled a little. Plus, with other shots I had to take as a kid and the one I needed to go to college, I'm willing to give it a shot (the pun was an accident of occasion:-). Looking back, I had no idea what was in those shots (I didn't begin glowing or attain any superpowers though), but I have a rough idea what's going on with this vaccine, so I'm fine.

[Christine]

Am 5.12.2020 um 01:15 schrieb Robbie C.:

I find it interesting that people who are so strident about wearing masks are reluctant to accept a vaccine in its early days. If a vaccine is going to protect you and prevent spread far more efficiently than a mask will, isn't it beyond irresponsible to refuse a vaccine?

I'm a geriatric nurse and I always wear a mask while working. Nevertheless I'm not sure if I would like to refuse the vaccine.

Why?

Actually it takes about ten years and several tests before a vaccine is approved. Now it had only taken a view month. I'd heard that this vaccine was actually developed against cancer. A patients daughter told me this. She'd had  an English course in her company and the teacher had been working for Biontech in Mainz for eight years. He'd told his students so. He said, Biontech had only changed one protein and now this vaccine helps against Covid. They took the test from the former vaccine, but I think, if they had changed anything new tests would have been nessecary. 

No one can tell us anything about long term demages. For example: If a woman becomes infertile, it doesn't matter to someone in my age, but not if you're only 25. But maybe there'll be demages that affect elderly people, too. 

In Switzerland 50% of the nursing stuff deny to get vaccinated. They say they aren't Guinea pigs.

[Tom]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Christine:

I'm a geriatric nurse and I always wear a mask while working. Nevertheless I'm not sure if I would like to refuse the vaccine.

Why?

Actually it takes about ten years and several tests before a vaccine is approved. Now it had only taken a view month. I'd heard that this vaccine was actually developed against cancer. A patients daughter told me this. She'd had  an English course in her company and the teacher had been working for Biontech in Mainz for eight years. He'd told his students so. He said, Biontech had only changed one protein and now this vaccine helps against Covid. They took the test from the former vaccine, but I think, if they had changed anything new tests would have been nessecary. 

No one can tell us anything about long term demages. For example: If a woman becomes infertile, it doesn't matter to someone in my age, but not if you're only 25. But maybe there'll be demages that affect elderly people, too. 

In Switzerland 50% of the nursing stuff deny to get vaccinated. They say they aren't Guinea pigs.

Good point. To add to this: normally, for a vaccine for a fairly limited number of patients e.g. against flu or typhus, it takes 3-4 years to approve phase 3 of vaccine/medicine testing, which is the laboratory study of effects on patient control groups. That procedure and its timeline has been a global consensus for decades in pharma, politics and medicine for a good reason. 

Now, for a global vaccination, potentially applied to everyone on earth, i.e. 7 bn people, many countries approved it after 3 months. Find the mistake!

Conclusion: either health authorities worldwide and pharma companies alike have been irresponsible idiots in the past to delay vaccinations and wasting billions of dollars for useless clinical studies or they are now for irresponsibly speeding it through. Take your pick.

I favor the latter and I am keen on understanding WHO will take responsibility once we find out that the vaccine(s) have unexpected side effects (that would have normally limited in a small control group but are now spreading across the whole population.

Although I understand that there is strong interest for fast approval under given circumstances, it is irresponsible to use millions of people as guinea pigs against a virus whose features are still not fully understood (e.g.nobody can guarantee that it will help against the newly found mutations) AND let´s not forget that the vaccination in best case only helps against falling sick with symptoms but not against the infection itself and even if you´re immune you can still pass it on to others. That has not been widely discussed and will add to falsely position untested vaccinations as a guarantee for getting our usual life back, i.e. false expectation management.

P.S. in Russia millions of people deny being vaccinated, even seniors. Putin skipped Phase 3 completely and most Russians are skeptical as to unexpected side effects.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Tom

[Christine]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Tom:

Now, for a global vaccination, potentially applied to everyone on earth, i.e. 7 bn people, many countries approved it after 3 months. Find the mistake!

 AND let´s not forget that the vaccination in best case only helps against falling sick with symptoms but not against the infection itself and even if you´re immune you can still pass it on to others. That has not been widely discussed and will add to falsely position untested vaccinations as a guarantee for getting our usual life back, i.e. false expectation management.

That's what I said. They reacted to fast and conjured up a vaccine out of the hat.

When I was with a patient I listened to a someone on TV who explained that the vaccine protects you from getting sick, but that you still can be the carrier of the virus. That's the reason why they claim that everyone should be vaccinated. 

[jpaul1]

we don't know and will never know the long term effects. i mean now. according to what i read the technology used to develop it is a technology where the vaccine can produce proteins on demand. not been deeper into this yet. but it seems more or less that the vaccine can produce exactly the needed proteins. thus these very high efficiency levels, with a pretty fast development time. again didn't had time to go deeper into this, nor am a chemical scientist

 personnally i decided to go for the vaccine even if i'm sceptical. globally i'm always sceptical regarding chemistry. if there's a natural equivalent i will always go for it (90% of the vegetables and fruits i eat are organic). but i also consider (personal opinion) that we shouldn't let the elder,, and the high risk populations do the guinea pigs alone. i mean we need to end this because it's a dangerous virus, and everyone should do his part (i think)

[vicegirl85]

I received my first dose of the vaccine on December 22 and have scheduled the second one for January 19.

Actually when discussing the technology and development of this vaccine, because the genetic code of the novel coronavirus was mapped so early on, a tremendous amount of time was saved, compared to some of the older vaccines.  Also, when SARS was at near epidemic spread in many countries (although the US did not see much at all, the Ontario, Canada area did), scientists worked to develop a vaccine for it.  SARS was another coronavirus, but it died out on its own before the vaccine was quite ready.  However, again the work done toward developing that vaccine gave scientists a head start for COVID.  For several years, CDC, WHO, etc., have been expecting a major epidemic caused by new, emerging viral infections.  So much research has been directed at this.  All of these factors contributed to the seemingly super-accelerated development of the COVID-19 vaccines currently approved for emergency use (none have received full approval in the US) as well as those that are seeking that emergency use approval and those still in late-stage studies.

It will take time to gain complete information about effectiveness, risk vs benefits, use in children, etc., because of the shorter timeline.  But I personally know a physician-led research practice that has been conducting a phase 3 study with the Pfizer vaccine since March 2020.  There are other studies being conducted across the country and they will continue for 2 years in order to gather more data.  So there has actually been, and will continue to be, a lot of data collection.  It's not been haphazard or rushed without thought to safety precautions.

[Christine]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb vicegirl85:

I received my first dose of the vaccine on December 22 and have scheduled the second one for January 19.

 

How did you tolerate the vaccination?

[vicegirl85]

For the first day, I could feel where the shot was given.  I wouldn't say it was sore or achy, but it was something I could notice.  Since then, nothing.  I know others who did have soreness, redness, or felt achy or even feverish for several days, but I didn't.  Some of the study participants noted more symptoms with the second dose, compared to the first dose.  I'll see what happens. 

 I am a nurse working in a hospital.  In my state (and I believe in the US in general) healthcare workers and nursing home residents were placed in the first tier of people who were eligible to take the vaccine after the emergency use authorization (EUA).  My hospital received our initial shipment on December 21.   We have been steadily vaccinating staff and physicians since then.  Virtually all of our physicians and nurse-practitioners have taken the vaccine, but for staff in general, less than half have accepted it so far.  The most hesitant people seem to have been nurses and other professional-level workers, so you are not alone in hesitating, Christine.   But I want to get back to normal life and could hardly wait to get my shot!

[miamijimf]

There is some truth in this meme.  I'm not saying that taking precautions is cowardly, we should all wash our hands, wear masks, etc especially the elderly and those with medical problems.  But we all know some people who live in fear.  Life is too short for that.  I believe that it may take time but we will see the virus brought under control. 

In Florida a lot of health care workers have been vaccinated but the Governor has ordered that from now on people over 65 will have top priority over younger people regardless of occupation.  Don't necessarily agree but thought what was happening here was worth mentioning.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by miamijimf

[Dadrian]

Yeah @miamijimf, like you said, “not cowardly”. In fact, the guy on the bottom may just be trying to protect and serve the men on the top (at least in his mind). They’re all doing their part. 
 

edit: I realize most WWII soldiers are no longer with us, but you know what I’m saying.

There’s definitely a fine line between living in fear and using good judgment, and it’s getting harder to find these days!  

Edited January 9, 2021 by Dadrian

[Robbie C.]

34 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

For the first day, I could feel where the shot was given.  I wouldn't say it was sore or achy, but it was something I could notice.  Since then, nothing.  I know others who did have soreness, redness, or felt achy or even feverish for several days, but I didn't.  Some of the study participants noted more symptoms with the second dose, compared to the first dose.  I'll see what happens. 

 I am a nurse working in a hospital.  In my state (and I believe in the US in general) healthcare workers and nursing home residents were placed in the first tier of people who were eligible to take the vaccine after the emergency use authorization (EUA).  My hospital received our initial shipment on December 21.   We have been steadily vaccinating staff and physicians since then.  Virtually all of our physicians and nurse-practitioners have taken the vaccine, but for staff in general, less than half have accepted it so far.  The most hesitant people seem to have been nurses and other professional-level workers, so you are not alone in hesitating, Christine.   But I want to get back to normal life and could hardly wait to get my shot!

I got mine very early on as well because I work in healthcare. Had a bit of a sore arm and the injection site is still a touch warm (I got mine maybe two days after you did, VG), but that's it. I think they said around 70% of our staff has been vaccinated thus far, with only a handful of outright declinations.

Did I hesitate? No. Did I have doubts? Not particularly. Things may have moved faster than normal, but this isn't a normal situation (especially in terms of perception). Many of the things that went into this have been in some form of development for years. What concerns me is the fact that many organizations seem to have been caught flat-footed when it comes to planning for vaccinations (even for their own staff). Personally I would have started some kind of contingency planning back in October (at least), but my own organization is still scrambling to a degree. And some of the other agencies we work with are in the same boat...

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

Yeah @miamijimf, like you said, “not cowardly”. In fact, the guy on the bottom may just be trying to protect and serve the men on the top (at least in his mind). They’re all doing their part. 
 

edit: I realize most WWII soldiers are no longer with us, but you know what I’m saying.

There’s definitely a fine line between living in fear and using good judgment, and it’s getting harder to find these days!  

I agree Dadrian, and living in fear can cloud judgment; I think it's important to be careful in these times, but not to go overboard. Then again, we're all hardwired differently, so what makes sense to me may not make sense to someone else, and sometimes that other individual's way is better than mine (hard to believe, but it's true:-).

[timm525]

I got the first shot end of December too. Second one to come last week of January.

Arm was a little sore for a few days. More then a flu shot but much less then a tetanus shot. Those suck!

I had no noticeable side effects or symptoms from it. At least not so far....

I was and still am very skeptical about long term side affects but too late now. What’s the worst that can happen...I croak again? 

I don’t know the numbers but they are pushing the staff to get it and the turnout has not been as well as they expected. I think a lot of folks are scared. One good thing is the physicians have been getting it so that gives me some hope. They’re far smarter then me on this stuff for sure and if they are getting in line maybe that’s a good thing. Our Chief Medical Officer, (CMO) was one of the first to get it. 

Here’s hoping 300 million people don’t start dropping dead in a few years.....ooooooops we didn’t expect that. 

[Vicefan7777]

I am friends with some veterans who served in Vietnam so they are at that high risk age.  One told me his doctor told him that because of all the shots he was given while in the service his risk factor is actually lower as the vaccines given made his body more immune to this new virus. I too got multiple shots while in the Air Force and got my flu and pneumonia shots last month so I can say I feel good about what I was told.  However, I wonder if this is one doctor's opinion or if any real studies have been conducted to confirm this. I still take all precautions as recommended. 

[Christine]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb vicegirl85:

  The most hesitant people seem to have been nurses and other professional-level workers, so you are not alone in hesitating, Christine.   But I want to get back to normal life and could hardly wait to get my shot!

I think this has got to do with the fact that we think more about the possible consequences of the vaccination. I agree. I also want to return to normal life, meet with my children, my granddaughter (she's six months old) and my friends. I want to visit restaurants and book conventions, make readings and some things more. My younger daughter got on Friday a recon notification for the vaccine, we didn't, but the Diakonia is often a bit slower than the others. I'm curious about your second vaccination. Please tell me how it was.