Miami Vice TV series on Blu-ray

[Tom]

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Edited May 21, 2021 by Tom

[Glades]

My assessment of the BluRay set from Koch is this:
They have done a great job.

But:
Everyone has individual viewing habits and preferences. Human vision is not technically objective and the same for everyone.
I, for example, do not like very sharp images and react very sensitively to a skin tone that is not rosy, but only in the slightest direction of greenish, bluish, reddish.
What I do like are bright, clear colors.
Hence my mixed assessment of the Koch set. Especially daylight shots outside I often find really great compared to other sets. Close-ups of faces not always.

Koch seems to me to have gotten the maximum technically possible out of the master. I have been editing my photos on the computer myself with gimp for a long time. And I know that it has its price to improve a picture. It is a fine line between maximum improvement and deterioration again. Highly edited images are unfortunately less tolerant of output device weaknesses.
I don't own a TV screen optimized for BluRay. Presumably it would be better if I did. I tried the Koch BluRay on different monitors and the picture was really different. I know this from other DVD's and BluRay's (other than MV) not to this extent. I am seriously considering buying a decent TV. It is starting to get really expensive though....

I think buyers should keep that in mind. There is no one best set for everyone. There are differences in viewing habits and technical equipment. People are individuals.

[Tom]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Glades:

My assessment of the BluRay set from Koch is this:
They have done a great job.

But:
Everyone has individual viewing habits and preferences. Human vision is not technically objective and the same for everyone.
I, for example, do not like very sharp images and react very sensitively to a skin tone that is not rosy, but only in the slightest direction of greenish, bluish, reddish.
What I do like are bright, clear colors.
Hence my mixed assessment of the Koch set. Especially daylight shots outside I often find really great compared to other sets. Close-ups of faces not always.

Koch seems to me to have gotten the maximum technically possible out of the master. I have been editing my photos on the computer myself with gimp for a long time. And I know that it has its price to improve a picture. It is a fine line between maximum improvement and deterioration again. Highly edited images are unfortunately less tolerant of output device weaknesses.
I don't own a TV screen optimized for BluRay. Presumably it would be better if I did. I tried the Koch BluRay on different monitors and the picture was really different. I know this from other DVD's and BluRay's (other than MV) not to this extent. I am seriously considering buying a decent TV. It is starting to get really expensive though....

I think buyers should keep that in mind. There is no one best set for everyone. There are differences in viewing habits and technical equipment. People are individuals.

I agree with everything you said and thank you for reminding everyone that each monitor or TV screenhas different color and contrast delivery or at least different settings.

I also respect your opinion although not fully matching mine, since you have the set yourself and have a foundation for your judgment. I am just against the practice of some members here to judge a BluRay set they have never owned or viewed themselves, just going by a few posted stills from somebody else, mostly even taken as a photograph off a TV screen. 

P.S. Koch corrected some episodes even MANUALLY (I have a list somewhere which ones, but Baby Blues was among them I remember) as they were different than others and needed different settings. That´s what I call dedication and that needs to be mentioned. All the other vendors did just a quick encoding without thinking too much about it. So, Koch did not just apply the same settings for all 111 episodes when encoding them from the master.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Tom

[Glades]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

P.S. Koch corrected some episodes even MANUALLY (I have a list somewhere which ones, but Baby Blues was among them I remember) as they were different than others and needed different settings. That´s what I call dedication and that needs to be mentioned. All the other vendors did just a quick encoding without thinking too much about it. So, Koch did not just apply the same settings for all 111 episodes when encoding them from the master.

I can confirm that Koch has put an unusual amount of effort into the set and everything around it. You can clearly see how carefully and dedicated everything was done.

 

[ViceFanMan]

6 hours ago, Glades said:

So far I have 3 (!) MV complete sets. But all I really want is a good one. O.k. maybe it's good to have a second one as a spare...

My first set, the German DVD set, unfortunately has only the cut version, with each episode missing 3-5 minutes. Back then I didn't even know the German DVD set was a cut version.  
Once I discovered my passion for MV, I realized that pretty quickly and bought an English set with English subtitles (because just listening to English is sometimes difficult for me). There was 2 years ago only the old DVD set from Universal, which offers subtitles.
And now the German BluRay set from Koch.  German and uncut (VFM, you know what I mean!) was just too tempting.

And I'm still unhappy. I like the colors best on the old cut German set, but that's cut, unfortunately.  The universal set is quite brown and dirty. Not pretty. And the Koch set?  Better, but as VFM says, the colors strike me as too gaudy too, not pastel. Mainly I'm bothered by the facial tones, which are sometimes almost a bit greenish. However, there are also scenes where this is quite great... And I don't have a very good monitor and don't really know how to adjust it by myself.  Maybe this is the reason? I don't know.

I want the egg-laying wool-milk sow!!! (Do you understand that expression in English?)

 

Very well put, and since you have the Koch set you can attest better than I can, as I’ve only seen several pics of scenes from different episodes to compare. However, the ones I’ve seen all look very neon and bright. The colors look pretty...but it doesn’t look like MV to me. I understand the idea of trying to improve something that’s older to look like it did originally...but it just comes across as everything ‘redone’ in bright colors, rather than the subtle pastels. 

I do realize that for the German audience the Koch set has included the U.S.’s syndicated versions...which are “more” complete than versions available in Germany before. However, for us in the U.S. those are still edited/cut episodes created for our reruns...and sadly the only versions that have been allowed to be used, or are available for use, when creating all of the home video sets. 

The “perfect” set would be if Universal would have original uncut/unedited NBC airings put out on a DVD/Blu-Ray set...but that might not be possible if those are no longer in existence? So, if you have all the Blu-Ray sets you’re probably set on having what’s out there.  

[Cassagrande.M]

They way I see it, if the producers had the 21st century technology back in September 1984, then no doubt Michael Mann would of broadcast MV in HD (Koch Version).

IMO sometimes people’s reference points are skewed due to when or how they saw MV originally. 
 

I saw it on TV back in standard definition in 2007. I can happily say Koch have given new life to this show in the way they have remastered it. Better than previous releases for sure. I now can no longer watch a full episode without it being in HD. 
 

note: If any of you have the newer HD smart sony TVs, there is a separate feature called “Live Football Mode” which is like a filter with a higher frame rate. The other night I had this feature on and I watched MV with this filter on and it was absolutely amazing. The filter kinda took away the film like quality but gave it more of a digital feel like the MV 2006 movie if that makes sense. I recommend trying this if you’re tv has this feature. 

[ViceFanMan]

49 minutes ago, Cassagrande.M said:

They way I see it, if the producers had the 21st century technology back in September 1984, then no doubt Michael Mann would of broadcast MV in HD (Koch Version).

IMO sometimes people’s reference points are skewed due to when or how they saw MV originally. 
 

I saw it on TV back in standard definition in 2007. I can happily say Koch have given new life to this show in the way they have remastered it. Better than previous releases for sure. I now can no longer watch a full episode without it being in HD. 
 

note: If any of you have the newer HD smart sony TVs, there is a separate feature called “Live Football Mode” which is like a filter with a higher frame rate. The other night I had this feature on and I watched MV with this filter on and it was absolutely amazing. The filter kinda took away the film like quality but gave it more of a digital feel like the MV 2006 movie if that makes sense. I recommend trying this if you’re tv has this feature. 

I agree that the show would have been done and aired in HD if that had been available back then. However, “HD” doesn’t necessarily mean changing pastel colors into neon ones, or altering the colors from original ones. MV was intended to look as it was aired originally—darker storylines set against pastel & Caribbean backdrop. The brightness & harshness of neon was never really part of MV & its color scheme. And most Blu-Ray sets & TVs are HD now. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[bodie]

 

On 5/20/2021 at 3:39 PM, Cassagrande.M said:

I got the Koch version very shorty after it’s release. Worth every penny and a must for serious hardcore vice fans. Stunning artwork. European market has the best Vice Blu-rays. The best being Koch and the second in my eyes being the UK Vice boxset from fabulous entertainment. Both better than the US millcreek versions. 
 

The colours on the Koch set really pop.

Just to say, that your aspect ratio is off there. Miami Vice is vintage television, square 4:3 ratio. You can see Don is distorted in the image above to fit your rectangular screen. Check your aspect ratio on your screen, it should be set to 16:9. And check your player is set to output discs at their original resolution; all the Miami Vice Blu-rays are 16:9 with black bars either side and the 4:3 image in the middle. So you want black bars either side, full picture visible and no distortion;

horizontal stretch;

cropped, losing top and bottom of image;

vertical stretch;

4:3 with 4:3 bars imposed by screen (Blu-rays have these black pillarbox bars already);

4:3 squashed and stretched to cinema ratio;

4:3 zoomed to cinema ratio, but with imposed unnecessary black top and bottom that wastes screen space;

correct 4:3 in a 16:9 frame, every pixel of the screen is used to display every pixel of the disc;

 

in addition to all of that, make sure your screen overscan setting is off, or you will lose a tiny bit of the image. And make sure you use a screen setting like Cinema or True Cinema, not Normal, Dynamic, Game or anything. You want to see the disc as it is, not have the screen make any choices.

Also noise reduction settings should be disabled and any sharpness sliders should be set to middle if that is off - or down to nothing if that takes it off. You want the original film grain that the high definition scan has captured to render the detail of the film. You don't want more or less than intended - no screen can create detail that isn't actually there on the disc when viewed unaltered. Anything that claims to is a trick, don't be fooled.

However, if you the user decide you actively want any of these settings to differ from correct presentation, that is of course up to you. I'm just pointing out what's intended by the makers of the show

 

On 5/24/2021 at 7:13 PM, Cassagrande.M said:

They way I see it, if the producers had the 21st century technology back in September 1984, then no doubt Michael Mann would of broadcast MV in HD (Koch Version).

IMO sometimes people’s reference points are skewed due to when or how they saw MV originally. 
 

I saw it on TV back in standard definition in 2007. I can happily say Koch have given new life to this show in the way they have remastered it. Better than previous releases for sure. I now can no longer watch a full episode without it being in HD. 
 

note: If any of you have the newer HD smart sony TVs, there is a separate feature called “Live Football Mode” which is like a filter with a higher frame rate. The other night I had this feature on and I watched MV with this filter on and it was absolutely amazing. The filter kinda took away the film like quality but gave it more of a digital feel like the MV 2006 movie if that makes sense. I recommend trying this if you’re tv has this feature. 

Equally here, up to you. But this has been a thing that has caused quite a bit of controversy in recent times - the difference between film and video.

Film is 24 frames per second, so Miami Vice should be coming through at 24p and 1080 resolution. You can mess with that with your Live mode and it will seem, as you say, to not be like film... that's what it's for.

Once again, up to you. But Miami Vice is film. A change just for seeing what it's like is fine, but these guys have a good point as to why it shouldn't be like that, from the point of view of film as film;

But as they say, it's all about enjoyment, so whatever floats your boat. So long as it's a conscious choice, rather than your player and screen settings not being set up by the person watching

[RedDragon86]

The picture is great but the audio is terrible.

[ViceFanMan]

16 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

The picture is great but the audio is terrible.

On what set??

[RedDragon86]

13 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

On what set??

Fabulous films.

It's suppose to be master audio but it sounds so flat, on the same soundbar after  "Bushido" last night I watched an episode of Monk on DVD and it sounded 10x better and that's only dolby audio.

Wathing action movies like Lethal Weapon etc the master audio is way superior. It's like there is no bass to it.

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Fabulous films.

It's suppose to be master audio but it sounds so flat, on the same soundbar after  "Bushido" last night I watched an episode of Monk on DVD and it sounded 10x better and that's only dolby audio.

Wathing action movies like Lethal Weapon etc the master audio is way superior. It's like there is no bass to it.

Yeah...there’s at least 3 different Blu-Ray sets out by different companies/countries. Sadly, all have some kind of issues or problems...whether sound, defective discs, or even color/lighting alterations or changes that make scenes look harsh & cause bizarre skin-tone. All sets also use the U.S. syndicated/rerun versions, which means they’re edited and cut from the original NBC airings. Sadly, I don’t think there is a Blu-Ray set that has MV as close to how it was originally & with perfect sound. So, you have to pick which set you think you might like best & go with it. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[bodie]

Yeah, the Fabulous set only features 5.1 remixes, not original stereo tracks.

[RedDragon86]

16 hours ago, bodie said:

Yeah, the Fabulous set only features 5.1 remixes, not original stereo tracks.

If I switch my Blu Ray player audio setting to Dolby digital will it work?

The master audio dts is so flat and sharp as well that it hurts your ears when gunfire happens during an episode.

Its like there is no bounce or bass.

[Cassagrande.M]

The set to go with is Koch media. That’s truly the best available to fans right now. That said it does come down to taste. I recently saw a full original broadcast of Phil The Shil from its original air date and im sorry but it’s so grainy and lacks detail. 
When I watch MV I want as much detail as possible. Unfortunately though due to the 2008 universal fire we will never get MV in 4K.

[ViceFanMan]

24 minutes ago, Cassagrande.M said:

The set to go with is Koch media. That’s truly the best available to fans right now. That said it does come down to taste. I recently saw a full original broadcast of Phil The Shil from its original air date and im sorry but it’s so grainy and lacks detail. 
When I watch MV I want as much detail as possible. Unfortunately though due to the 2008 universal fire we will never get MV in 4K.

I have some original broadcasts that are in pretty darn good quality...and those are my favorite to watch, as for the age of the tapes they were originally transferred from, the detail is awesome—and it’s un-altered original detail! They also include original commercial bumpers...and those are not on any DVD or Blu-Ray releases.

But, sadly yeah we will probably not have full original Vice officially released if the fire destroyed the original broadcasts...or if they still exist, but Universal doesn’t want to spend the money to digitally remaster them when they already have the edited syndicated versions. 

[bodie]

On 7/12/2021 at 4:07 PM, RedDragon86 said:

If I switch my Blu Ray player audio setting to Dolby digital will it work?

The master audio dts is so flat and sharp as well that it hurts your ears when gunfire happens during an episode.

Its like there is no bounce or bass.

You could flatten the 5.1 out to fold down the surrounds to stereo, but fundamentally the original stereo mix is not on the discs you have. Cassagrande.M mentions the German Koch set that does have them on, but that set is sold out now.

Other editions with the stereo mixes are;

Mill Creek

Elephant

But do note that only the latter is lossless stereo, the Mill Creek is a budget release. And do watch out for the region coding as per those listings.

Fundamentally they are all the same masters from Universal, to most people all of the Blu-ray presentations are indentical. But as you're asking about sound, you may be interested in what differences there are between the versions :)

 

20 hours ago, Cassagrande.M said:

The set to go with is Koch media. That’s truly the best available to fans right now. That said it does come down to taste. I recently saw a full original broadcast of Phil The Shil from its original air date and im sorry but it’s so grainy and lacks detail. 
When I watch MV I want as much detail as possible. Unfortunately though due to the 2008 universal fire we will never get MV in 4K.

Do we know that MV was a casualty of the fire? I mean, I totally get why it's a possibility, of course. But is this a fact? :)

[Tom]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb bodie:

Do we know that MV was a casualty of the fire? I mean, I totally get why it's a possibility, of course. But is this a fact?

Yes. Unfortunately Universal is an irresponsible company and suffered a lot of losses (they lost Truman Master Tapes) and fires of their and John Petersen’s master tape material. 
 

it’s no coincidence that all DVD and BluRay releases since 2008 are all done from the same Universal HD Master. 
 

it’s a pity. The original 35mm Material of the series is equivalent to 4k resolution (grainy and no digital Original of course!) but we will never see it. Universal contended after the 2008 fire that they had everything double vaulted but the non existence of any recent new masters shows otherwise.

[bodie]

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

Yes. Unfortunately Universal is an irresponsible company and suffered a lot of losses (they lost Truman Master Tapes) and fires of their and John Petersen’s master tape material. 
 

it’s no coincidence that all DVD and BluRay releases since 2008 are all done from the same Universal HD Master. 
 

it’s a pity. The original 35mm Material of the series is equivalent to 4k resolution (grainy and no digital Original of course!) but we will never see it. Universal contended after the 2008 fire that they had everything double vaulted but the non existence of any recent new masters shows otherwise.

Thanks. It may indicate otherwise. But without concrete fact that the MV film is gone, I think it would be a mistake for fans to take it as read in discussion.

We've seen the dangers of this before where other series have been spoken of for years as having been lost, only for someone not taking that as fact, to actually seek out the films and find them.

I'd hate for MV to sit in storage forever more because there is an assumption that the masters are gone. If it's said often enough one can make something that isn't gone essentially disappear when in reality it's sitting there, should anyone ask for it.

Let's not give the impression there is no point looking, as the series all freshly mastered in 4K would be a dream

[Tom]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb bodie:

Thanks. It may indicate otherwise. But without concrete fact that the MV film is gone, I think it would be a mistake for fans to take it as read in discussion.

We've seen the dangers of this before where other series have been spoken of for years as having been lost, only for someone not taking that as fact, to actually seek out the films and find them.

I'd hate for MV to sit in storage forever more because there is an assumption that the masters are gone. If it's said often enough one can make something that isn't gone essentially disappear when in reality it's sitting there, should anyone ask for it.

Let's not give the impression there is no point looking, as the series all freshly mastered in 4K would be a dream

Universal confirmed that Miami Vice was in that storage that burnt to the ground. Since then no new Universal master off the original material has been created. Of course everyone is entitled to optimism and believing in pink cangaroos despite these facts  

[Dadrian]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

cangaroos

Is this how they spell “kangaroo” over there? 

[bodie]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

Universal confirmed that Miami Vice was in that storage that burnt to the ground. Since then no new Universal master off the original material has been created. Of course everyone is entitled to optimism and believing in pink cangaroos despite these facts  

With respect, what we need here is a link to that Universal confirmation you mention - that's the fact, not what you, me or any other fan on a forum says

[bodie]

For instance this article says;

"Meyer estimated there were 40,000 to 50,000 videos and film reels in a vault that burned but said duplicates were stored in a different location. Firefighters managed to recover hundreds of titles.

The videos included every film that Universal has produced and footage from television series including "Miami Vice" and "I Love Lucy.""

But that's a long way from saying all the original films are gone.

[Tom]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb bodie:

With respect, what we need here is a link to that Universal confirmation you mention - that's the fact, not what you, me or any other fan on a forum says

Your posting tone has nothing to do with respect as I know what I read.

but here it is: open the „fire“ sub section and you will also see sources for that information (eg New York Times) and MV mentioned. Universal also lost significant portion of original music Masters of great musicians(Paul Anka, Aerosmith,…)  in that same Fire. Just to put that in relation to their care about MV.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire
 

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb bodie:

For instance this article says;

"Meyer estimated there were 40,000 to 50,000 videos and film reels in a vault that burned but said duplicates were stored in a different location. Firefighters managed to recover hundreds of titles.

The videos included every film that Universal has produced and footage from television series including "Miami Vice" and "I Love Lucy.""

But that's a long way from saying all the original films are gone.

How many duplicates of original Film reels in a vault(!) do you think exist with 35mm material? And why haven’t they done any new master off that material since that fire happened?