pahonu Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 3 hours ago, ivoryjones said: One would also have to suppose the prints haven’t got the slightest bit old, reddish and faded, or that Mill Creek/Universal would spend a lot of time and bucks restoring the prints (and that would not deserve mentioning when promoting the BD set). Unlikely, if you consider the issues on the MC release and how is really tough to find a white on the scenes that is not even slightly contaminated with some “warming” effect. One can easily see that even the sea foam (opening) is somewhat reddish, which suggest the vinegar effect that tends to mess with print colors. Sometimes the show (on digital releases) looks like an old Polaroid photo. The “white glow” from S3-5 logo is pale and too warm. Not to open a can of worms, but this conversation has previously occurred, in depth, and the original film print has most certainly degraded in the over 35 years since the pilot aired, and much more than most people realize. Maybe someone else here can find the thread, but with all respect, the arguments about original colors are ultimately pointless. By original colors, I mean what we watched back in the mid to late 80’s on our televisions. There is absolutely no way to know what those were precisely, for all the reasons discussed in that thread. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivoryjones Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 1 hour ago, pahonu said: Not to open a can of worms, but this conversation has previously occurred, in depth, and the original film print has most certainly degraded in the over 35 years since the pilot aired, and much more than most people realize. Maybe someone else here can find the thread, but with all respect, the arguments about original colors are ultimately pointless. By original colors, I mean what we watched back in the mid to late 80’s on our televisions. There is absolutely no way to know what those were precisely, for all the reasons discussed in that thread. Yes, If that’s what I’m thinking I have opened the thread and uploaded hundreds of images on those discussions. I’ve touched the subject here in order to see if there were any improvements with the Koch release. Even if the matrices were (they are) the same, they could have been partially corrected digitally, the same way someone can correct degraded Polaroid images on Adobe Photoshop or old 8mm family film reels on Adobe Premiere (with LUTs and things like that). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahonu Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 17 minutes ago, ivoryjones said: Yes, If that’s what I’m thinking I have opened the thread and uploaded hundreds of images on those discussions. I’ve touched the subject here in order to see if there were any improvements with the Koch release. Even if the matrices were (they are) the same, they could have been partially corrected digitally, the same way someone can correct degraded Polaroid images on Adobe Photoshop or old 8mm family film reels on Adobe Premiere (with LUTs and things like that). That’s the discussion. Pages 9 and 10 particularly explain some of the problems. Here’s a really interesting article about the topic: https://mixinglight.com/color-grading-tutorials/color-restoring-classic-films/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodie Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Dadrian said: Forgive me if someone already answered this (I can’t remember): Does the Koch set show the full original 4:3 aspect? The Mill Creek discs have a little bit of the top and bottom cut off. If what you are after is maximum picture area, that's not the Koch versions as they have cropped the sides in. Mill Creek and Elephant are matted the same if you take that previous comparison and open this one in a new tab you can see. Generally 4:3 varies massively in this repsect. And Koch have matted harder for a more accurate 4:3 ratio, even though that means a trim on the sides and showing less picture. But as we see with feature films, many are not interested in if it's the correct ratio, they just want maximum picture. Which is not really appropriate, artistically, as the full exposed frame has rounded corners and the director of photography only frames for the action in the intended shot, not to have microphones or edges of sets visible which is what happens if you watch the full original uncropped frame of most things. When Vice was broadcast, people were watching on CRT screens which have a large overscan border around the edge - many modern screens have an option to turn overscan on or off and that tends to crop out any unwanted edge and the amount is the kind of difference we are seeing here with Vice. Of course overscan on a widescreen TV will not help with the sides of the 4:3 frame here, only top and bottom, as the black pillarbox is actually part of the Blu-ray image; it's a widescreen picture really, just with a 4:3 square set in the middle of it. And so those edges are set when the disc is prepred, not by the consumer, who can only make a difference to the top and bottom of frame by using overscan. But we're fans and these differences matter to fans. I for one have more than one copy of Vice, because I'm a fan and a collector and differences interest me. But for most, seeing and hearing the action is what matters, not how wide or narrow the 4:3 is Edited October 19, 2020 by bodie 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodie Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, ivoryjones said: Yes, If that’s what I’m thinking I have opened the thread and uploaded hundreds of images on those discussions. I’ve touched the subject here in order to see if there were any improvements with the Koch release. Even if the matrices were (they are) the same, they could have been partially corrected digitally, the same way someone can correct degraded Polaroid images on Adobe Photoshop or old 8mm family film reels on Adobe Premiere (with LUTs and things like that). This has always been fascinating and I suspect a number of things are at play. The blue of that scene you mention was clearly not shot that way on the day and evidently a post production decision was made to tint that sequence - when they dug out the elements for the DVDs, they likely predated these decisions as they probably went back as far as they could to source to get the highest quality. We know they made these really quickly and often that can mean the final, final, final version isn't nailed down until just ahead of broadcast and when there are so many episodes a year, it does not suprpise me that some evidently have discrepancies between retail format and broadcast. With the logos, that too is post production, so using different colour gels to vary the glow and then later for repeats using early digital techniques to generate variation. Once again I am not suprised that they basically just found titles, cleaned them and then used them on batches of episodes - it saves them cleaning up essentially the same sequence over and over again. But of course it loses those brodcast variations which can be down to physical discrepancies in the different materials, as well as concious decisons to vary the appearance. End of the day, if we had a set of broadcast masters on home format, those would be Standard Definition tapes. Which would have been nice for all the years where SD was the norm. But now, for something shot on film, it wouldn't be good enough and we'd still be in the position we are now; looking at the HD masters and noting differences. As I was saying in my previous, as a fan, I would love to have a set of broadcast masters, it would be fascinating. But Universal have, understandably, been catering to majority tastes all these years in looking for the best picture and sound for home market - not sticking faithfully to variants of interest to a minority of hardcore fans Edited October 19, 2020 by bodie spelling 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glades Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 On 10/19/2020 at 6:19 AM, pahonu said: That’s the discussion. Pages 9 and 10 particularly explain some of the problems. Here’s a really interesting article about the topic: https://mixinglight.com/color-grading-tutorials/color-restoring-classic-films/ Thank you very much! This article is great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakespyder Posted October 25, 2020 Report Share Posted October 25, 2020 So I was finally able to start watching the Elephant Blu Rays of MV last night and I thought I would chime in with a layman's opinion: Just beautiful. The dark scenes graininess is reduced and the sharpness in detail can occasionally make you appreciate a scene in a new way. The increase in picture quality does leave you regretting that the series was shot 4:3 even more though. But overall I think I'm going love my ride through the MV series on Blu Ray. cheers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodie Posted October 25, 2020 Report Share Posted October 25, 2020 49 minutes ago, fakespyder said: So I was finally able to start watching the Elephant Blu Rays of MV last night and I thought I would chime in with a layman's opinion: Just beautiful. The dark scenes graininess is reduced and the sharpness in detail can occasionally make you appreciate a scene in a new way. The increase in picture quality does leave you regretting that the series was shot 4:3 even more though. But overall I think I'm going love my ride through the MV series on Blu Ray. cheers Absolutely - have a good time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 30, 2021 Report Share Posted March 30, 2021 On 10/18/2020 at 10:47 PM, ivoryjones said: Yes, If that’s what I’m thinking I have opened the thread and uploaded hundreds of images on those discussions. I’ve touched the subject here in order to see if there were any improvements with the Koch release. Even if the matrices were (they are) the same, they could have been partially corrected digitally, the same way someone can correct degraded Polaroid images on Adobe Photoshop or old 8mm family film reels on Adobe Premiere (with LUTs and things like that). Hey, @ivoryjones! Long time, no talk! From what I have read & seen, the Koch set is probably the most up to date in regards to digitally remastering. However, I question their claim of original, uncut/unedited episodes...as I found their intro on YouTube, and they also use the “fake” purple & green logo. So, that tells me they too used syndicated rerun versions for the episodes, like all the other DVD & Blu-Ray sets have. If they had used the original, real logos I might consider getting this set. But, with the fake logo & most likely the syndicated versions used (I have the DVD sets for that), I’m not willing to pay the large price, even if the digitally remastering is probably the most up to date so far. Digitally remastered or not...nothing beats original, uncut/unedited airings with the real logos! I still feel forever grateful & blessed to have those! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh Burne Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 8 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: However, I question their claim of original, uncut/unedited episodes...as I found their intro on YouTube, and they also use the “fake” purple & green logo. I'm pretty sure "uncut" in this instance is in reference to previous home video releases, not how they were before network censors stuck their oars in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 4 hours ago, Leigh Burne said: I'm pretty sure "uncut" in this instance is in reference to previous home video releases, not how they were before network censors stuck their oars in. In reference in what way? Usually uncut/unedited means the full length episode, that would have originally aired...before other networks airing reruns edited, changed, or cut things for whatever reasons...usually to make time for commercials. The fake, purple & green MV logo was never part of the original show...so that’s a definite indication that the Koch set used the same episodes all the other home video sets did...they just supposedly digitally remastered them differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh Burne Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 14 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said: In reference in what way? Usually uncut/unedited means the full length episode, that would have originally aired...before other networks airing reruns edited, changed, or cut things for whatever reasons...usually to make time for commercials. The fake, purple & green MV logo was never part of the original show...so that’s a definite indication that the Koch set used the same episodes all the other home video sets did...they just supposedly digitally remastered them differently. I don't know for certain, but what I'm suggesting is previous German home video releases may have been further censored to conform to local censorship guidelines. The new Blu-rays presumably waive these additional cuts, therefore making them uncut as far as Germans are concerned. So Koch's statement is perfectly valid from that point of view. I know the UK season one releases are still trimmed to remove some cock fight footage because it contravenes the BBFC's animal cruelty rules. If that ever came out uncensored and was billed as being uncut, they wouldn't be lying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Leigh Burne said: I don't know for certain, but what I'm suggesting is previous German home video releases may have been further censored to conform to local censorship guidelines. The new Blu-rays presumably waive these additional cuts, therefore making them uncut as far as Germans are concerned. So Koch's statement is perfectly valid from that point of view. I know the UK season one releases are still trimmed to remove some cock fight footage because it contravenes the BBFC's animal cruelty rules. If that ever came out uncensored and was billed as being uncut, they wouldn't be lying. Gotcha...that makes sense. It could very well be referring to German releases in the past, compared to this one. If that’s the case, then I’m glad for the German fans who possibly can have “more” complete episodes than previous releases. However, for the U.S. to me it’s still the same edited/altered versions the cable networks created when the show first went into reruns (and what all the previous U.S. DVD & Blu-Ray releases have used)...they’re not actual original unedited/uncut episodes NBC aired. Edited March 31, 2021 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 vor 1 Stunde schrieb Leigh Burne: I don't know for certain, but what I'm suggesting is previous German home video releases may have been further censored to conform to local censorship guidelines. The new Blu-rays presumably waive these additional cuts, therefore making them uncut as far as Germans are concerned. So Koch's statement is perfectly valid from that point of view. I know the UK season one releases are still trimmed to remove some cock fight footage because it contravenes the BBFC's animal cruelty rules. If that ever came out uncensored and was billed as being uncut, they wouldn't be lying. The Koch set is uncut. On the Set one can decide to see the uncut US version (no re-run edits) or the German cut version which are 3-5 minutes shorter but not for censor reasons but the Public German network cut them to fit into the 43 min slot they had. Koch used the original Universal HD master but encoded it completely new and corrected even bugs on the master. There is a member here on the forum (SwissTubbs) who worked on the set and can give more details of needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tom said: The Koch set is uncut. On the Set one can decide to see the uncut US version (no re-run edits) or the German cut version which are 3-5 minutes shorter but not for censor reasons but the Public German network cut them to fit into the 43 min slot they had. Koch used the original Universal HD master but encoded it completely new and corrected even bugs on the master. There is a member here on the forum (SwissTubbs) who worked on the set and can give more details of needed. This sounds cool...but if they went with the original Universal masters, why in the world did they use the fake logo?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 vor 2 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan: This sounds cool...but if they went with the original Universal masters, why in the world did they use the fake logo?? Don’t know which fake logo you exactly mean but the Universal‘s only master is a few years old and has some bugs. I can assure you that Koch did not add anything wrong that was not there before. I personally have never seen a company that has put so much eye and effort on details. They even corrected smaller glitches we found a week ahead of release date! Ask @SwissTubbshe is able to tell you exactly what they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Tom said: Don’t know which fake logo you exactly mean but the Universal‘s only master is a few years old and has some bugs. I can assure you that Koch did not add anything wrong that was not there before. I personally have never seen a company that has put so much eye and effort on details. They even corrected smaller glitches we found a week ahead of release date! Ask @SwissTubbshe is able to tell you exactly what they did. It sounds cool...but if Universal’s only master left is just a few years old, I’m wondering if that ‘master’ is the altered versions with the fake logo? The purple & green logo was never part of the original show. That was for unknown reasons created (by Universal??) for syndication when the show went into reruns. For all the reruns & on all the other DVD/Blu-Ray sets, Seasons 1-2 have the original, correct logos...but for Seasons 3-5 there’s the fake purple & green used instead of the original ones. I don’t think Koch purposely changed anything, and it does sound like the remastering is the most up to date...I just question what ‘master’ or ‘original’ episodes were used if the purple & green logo is there? If they used original, uncut NBC airings, then I would think all the original & “real” logos would be there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) vor 43 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan: It sounds cool...but if Universal’s only master left is just a few years old, I’m wondering if that ‘master’ is the altered versions with the fake logo? The purple & green logo was never part of the original show. That was for unknown reasons created (by Universal??) for syndication when the show went into reruns. For all the reruns & on all the other DVD/Blu-Ray sets, Seasons 1-2 have the original, correct logos...but for Seasons 3-5 there’s the fake purple & green used instead of the original ones. I don’t think Koch purposely changed anything, and it does sound like the remastering is the most up to date...I just question what ‘master’ or ‘original’ episodes were used if the purple & green logo is there? If they used original, uncut NBC airings, then I would think all the original & “real” logos would be there, too. AFAIK there is only one Universal HD master that is the base for all BluRay releases. Koch made the best out of it and much much better than the others. But again, please involve SwissTubbs for details, he has the insight into such details that I don´t have. But I have not found any deleted scenes or re-run omissions. And, I think we have to separate the logo topic from the uncut topic. One does not mean necessarily the other, if just the logo is different in season 3-5 (Universal sold the series to USA in 1989 ,maybe that was the point were this wrong logo has been added and they made the master based on this...in the meantime Universal´s archive has burnt down so there might be no possibility to make a better one....?)). P.S. the original Universal 35mm film material used is comparable to BluRay pixel resolution but the Universal master is HD only. If Universal is smart and still has the original (fire of archive???) then they could make a new digital scan in BluRay quality. But Koch had to stick to the same HD master than all others. I do videoediting myself and I know good and natural picture. This one blew my head off on a HD TV played by my Panasonic BluRay player. The best features for me are the sharpness (details that were not readable are clear on screen now, you can see every single hair) and the brightness/colors that are very natural and intense. I have all episodes on old VHS (US original airings) and US DVDs plus Amazon HD as a comparison. Edited March 31, 2021 by Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Tom said: AFAIK there is only one Universal HD master that is the base for all BluRay releases. Koch made the best out of it and much much better than the others. But again, please involve SwissTubbs for details, he has the insight into such details that I don´t have. But I have not found any deleted scenes or re-run omissions. And, I think we have to separate the logo topic from the uncut topic. One does not mean necessarily the other, if just the logo is different in season 3-5 (Universal sold the series to USA in 1989 ,maybe that was the point were this wrong logo has been added?). Thank you for the info. But, you’re right the USA Network acquired the rights to air the series when it went off the air & they started showing reruns in 1990. I don’t know if they created the fake logo, or Universal did...but the versions with the purple & green were the syndicated ones. I’m wondering if sadly that’s all that’s left...and those versions are all Universal has anymore? Sometimes with older shows, original negatives/versions or whatever don’t last very well if they weren’t stored properly. So they have to use syndicated versions for DVD or Blu-Ray sets as that’s all there is. Sadly, as far as I know, no one has ever released or aired original NBC versions with everything original, including the logos. On the Koch set, do you happen to know if “Brother’s Keeper” is still split into 2 parts, is “Calderone’s Return” Pts. 1&2, and “Golden Triangle” Pts. 1&2 still used? Edited March 31, 2021 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 vor 18 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan: On the Koch set, do you happen to know if “Brother’s Keeper” is still split into 2 parts, is “Calderone’s Return” Pts. 1&2, and “Golden Triangle” Pts. 1&2 still used? Just checked on my Koch set: yes but the pilot is one movie subtitled „parts one and two“. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tom said: Just checked on my Koch set: yes but the pilot is one movie subtitled „parts one and two“. Ok...thanks. The Pilot was originally aired as a TV movie, just called “Miami Vice”. As far as I know the “Brothers Keeper” title (which could have been an original working title on the script?) and making it 2-parts was done for syndication. The “Calderone’s Return” Pts. 1&2, and “The Golden Triangle” Pts. 1&2 were also done for syndication...as they were originally titled “Hit List” & “Calderone’s Demise”, and “Score” & “Golden Triangle”. I have no idea why the titles were changed, but all of this was done for syndication. I do think the Koch set has used the most up to date remastering for the episodes they had access to...and those may be the only episodes available anymore for anyone! But, I do think they’re probably the first syndicated versions, created by either Universal for USA to use, or by USA themselves. At some point I actually may look into getting this set...but gotta be honest, over everything that purple & green logo drives me crazy! But, the price is also pretty steep. Maybe after a while, if I can find one not so expensive... But, even though they’re not digitally remastered (the colors and picture quality are pretty awesome though), I still love my original NBC airings! I know for a fact they’re original unedited/uncut episodes, all the original titles are there—which means they’re unedited or un-altered, all the original logos are there, they have all the original commercial bumpers (which is one of my favorite things & those are very rare to find for any older show), and it’s still kind of fun listening to the original voiceovers during the ending credits about other shows & the next Johnny Carson guests, Lol! Edited March 31, 2021 by ViceFanMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Ferrariman Posted March 31, 2021 Administrators Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said: I still love my original NBC airings! all the original logos are there, they have all the original commercial bumpers (which is one of my favorite things & those are very rare to find On my tapes I cut all the commercials but kept all the bumpers. You won't find those on any DVD set, no matter how good it looks! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 8 minutes ago, Ferrariman said: On my tapes I cut all the commercials but kept all the bumpers. You won't find those on any DVD set, no matter how good it looks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IA-SteveB Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 3 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: Ok...thanks. The Pilot was originally aired as a TV movie, just called “Miami Vice”. As far as I know the “Brothers Keeper” title (which could have been an original working title on the script?) and making it 2-parts was done for syndication. The “Calderone’s Return” Pts. 1&2, and “The Golden Triangle” Pts. 1&2 were also done for syndication...as they were originally titled “Hit List” & “Calderone’s Demise”, and “Score” & “Golden Triangle”. I have no idea why the titles were changed, but all of this was done for syndication. I do think the Koch set has used the most up to date remastering for the episodes they had access to...and those may be the only episodes available anymore for anyone! But, I do think they’re probably the first syndicated versions, created by either Universal for USA to use, or by USA themselves. At some point I actually may look into getting this set...but gotta be honest, over everything that purple & green logo drives me crazy! But, the price is also pretty steep. Maybe after a while, if I can find one not so expensive... But, even though they’re not digitally remastered (the colors and picture quality are pretty awesome though), I still love my original NBC airings! I know for a fact they’re original unedited/uncut episodes, all the original titles are there—which means they’re unedited or un-altered, all the original logos are there, they have all the original commercial bumpers (which is one of my favorite things & those are very rare to find for any older show), and it’s still kind of fun listening to the original voiceovers during the ending credits about other shows & the next Johnny Carson guests, Lol! There is something to be said about having everything period correct. I enjoy watching episodes of classic 80's shows on YouTube that also include the commercials. I don't know why, but I hate commercials watching television today, but there's something about watching them from the 80's that makes it special. It brings back memories of a time I'd rather be in, quite honestly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, IA-SteveB said: There is something to be said about having everything period correct. I enjoy watching episodes of classic 80's shows on YouTube that also include the commercials. I don't know why, but I hate commercials watching television today, but there's something about watching them from the 80's that makes it special. It brings back memories of a time I'd rather be in, quite honestly. Agreed!! Back then there was only like 3-4 commercials, instead of like 10 today (that might be an exaggeration but you know what I mean )...plus they didn’t insult my intelligence or have political agendas like the majority today do. I have some original airings of some older shows from the 50s-60s (“77 Sunset Strip”, “Hawaiian Eye”, “Surfside 6”, etc...) on DVD that include original commercials. Back then there were like 2, and they are pretty cool...the cigarette ones are HILARIOUS, as back then they tried to advertise their brand was a “healthier” smoke because of specialized filters, lol!!! Real butter was also advertised as healthy because it helped “lubricate” your arteries, lol! (P.S. real butter is better for you than margarine, which is basically a form of plastic, but too much still clogs the arteries.) Edited March 31, 2021 by ViceFanMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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