Miami Miscellaneous

[airtommy]

30 stories tall on Ocean Drive?  Terrible!

[miamijimf]

12 hours ago, airtommy said:

30 stories tall on Ocean Drive?  Terrible!

If it happens it won't be the first area of Greater Miami whose ambience has been ruined by developers.  Coral Gables used to have a  rule against high rises but look at it now.  I sent a letter of encouragement to the Mayor of the Beach who is trying to fight this.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by miamijimf

[Paul Veres]

23 hours ago, pahonu said:

I don’t know the details about the local ordinances that would protect the facade, but there have been several such adaptive reuse renovations here in Long Beach that were successful.  Multiple historic structures were converted to housing while maintaining the facades, such as the Masonic Temple and the historic Kress building, both downtown.

https://longbeachtemplelofts.com/about/#iLightbox[3be68545ee972a114af]/0

https://www.highrises.com/buildings/long-beach_ca/kress-lofts_100-w-5th-st_465

They were and are historically beautiful buildings and the exteriors were restored as they were converted to new housing.  My wife and I came very close to buying a loft in the Kress back in the late 90’s.  We ended up choosing to live in a townhouse at the marina, but it was a really cool space.

Edit:

I only read the article and mistakenly thought the Essex and Clevelander were being converted from hotels to housing.  I missed the 30 story addition in the article! 

Yeah, the 30 floors are the key, that will stick out of the Ocean Drive collective façade quite incongruently.  

[jpaul1]

On 8/6/2023 at 4:59 PM, airtommy said:

I've noticed that the porch railings at Art Deco hotels in South Beach are the same today as during the Vice era.  I assume that's part of the historical preservation edict.

But while I was watching "Moon Over Miami" I noticed an exception - the Penguin Hotel at 1418 Ocean Drive.  I wonder why they changed it and how they got away with it.

The Penguin in 1993:

The Penguin in 2019:

maybe they did it like for the Senator. quick, and silent

On 8/27/2023 at 1:50 AM, miamijimf said:

Good point.  They called the Miami area the "Gold Coast" but it didn't help.

Flager struggled a lot during his attempts to develop the railway, as well as draining the glades. the railway came only to key west at the very end of Flager's life

 

about the 30 story thing, if it's done you can say goodbye to the miami beach as we know it. what scares me the most, it's that such building contributes in killing the community spirit that i love so much in that city. big buildings are good to slow down the human expansion in the glades, but they're also gentrification vectors. if miami beach is gentrified what will remain. little havana, little haiti.? without these neighborhoods miami isn't miami anymore. it will become another caribbean tourists destination, but the city will be dead. personnally if i go to miami it's not to visit brickell. even though i have nothing against high rises. it's important that miami politics become conscious about this

Edited September 10, 2023 by jpaul1

[pahonu]

25 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

maybe they did it like for the Senator. quick, and silent

Flager struggled a lot during his attempts to develop the railway, as well as draining the glades. the railway came only to key west at the very end of Flager's life

 

about the 30 story thing, if it's done you can say goodbye to the miami beach as we know it. what scares me the most, it's that such building contributes in killing the community spirit that i love so much in that city. big buildings are good to slow down the human expansion in the glades, but they're also gentrification vectors. if miami beach is gentrified what will remain. little havana, little haiti.? without these neighborhoods miami isn't miami anymore. it will become another caribbean tourists destination, but the city will be dead. personnally if i go to miami it's not to visit brickell. even though i have nothing against high rises. it's important that miami politics become conscious about this

This is always a very personal subject because it’s based on the experiences in our own lifetimes.  It is fair to say though, that the Miami of our collective memory of MV is not the same Miami as in the 50’s or the 20’s or even earlier.  Little Havana was largely a Jewish neighborhood before the 1960’s, and Little Haiti to the north was a separate, small port town called Lemon City.  It wasn’t until large numbers of Haitians began arriving in the 70’s and 80’s that it gained its current character.
 

I guess my point is that all this growth and change back then was also gentrification.  What would the lemon farmers of 120 years ago think of Little Haiti now?  I don’t know for sure, but I’m sure some of them lamented in their day the loss of their community to greater Miami.  The same could be said of the Jewish population west of downtown in today’s Little Havana.  The process of urbanization is ongoing and largely inevitable, other than direct growth restriction laws, which can have unintended negative consequences themselves.  That’s not to say that growth can’t be smartly managed, but it will change the character of a place in the end, given enough time.

[jpaul1]

your point of view stands as long as large buildings give place to community life. small restaurants, small cafes, mall groceries most often held by medium or low income owners. which by essence will sow the seed of solidarity. something which i doubt can be achieved with large modern residential buildings. i hope i'm wrong, but i think all these communities will be hard to keep with large modern buildings. maybe the 30 stories building will give access to social apartments. but if this is allowed, then others will pop up like mushrooms beside, and will sell for much higher. IMO this is not a potting soil for communities. if gentrification was harmless, i think we'd know it already

[Paul Veres]

Some use the word 'gentrification' like it's a slur. Gentrification is not bad per se. In fact I'd settle on a definition first before calling this new development gentrification. Generally, gentrification creates jobs and reduces crime. Are there side effects? Absolutely, but net-net I think it's a positive change for the society when we remove personal emotions about the place.

Heck, take Esmé Miami Beach - it took dilapidating structures and turned them into a beautiful hotel with lots of public areas and a great tapas spot, cozy bar, and wonderful rooftop bar/restaurant, all blending so coherently into Española Way you'd never think it's something brand new. Yes, few can afford $400 nights in this boutique hotel, but it made the better use of the space while supporting the existing spirit of the area. That's why Miami Beach Chamber of Commerce recognized it with 2 awards: for innovative design AND for historic preservation. You can do both!!

So it's all about comprehensive planning, and building the future while honoring the past through keeping what can be preserved and not creating distortions to the fabric of the neighborhood.

Look at Alys Beach. Great example of what can be done from scratch when it's all under the umbrella of a developer who understands. Miami Beach absolutely needs some iron fist of a code and corresponding enforcement, instead of "recommendations" develops spit on, to provide for similarly cohesive development in an existing city.

So my biggest issue with this new building is 30 floors. Whatever else you do, this crazy height will tear up Ocean Drive's face and potentially give way to similar developments cause the tourist attraction then has "nothing to lose". 

[jpaul1]

what i'm trying to say it's that for me, Miami can't be taken away from its communities. without its communities, Miami is lost, dead. this is my personal opinion. communities are Miami story, Miami soul. making Miami something unique, and special. it's been a while since i've gone to Miami. i was very close to go there once, but a huricane completely changed my plans. however on streetview i saw the area near wynwood where everything has been done to new. if you go to little havana, or little haiti a bit farer, there's no debate, the newest area looks incredibly cold compared to the old neighborhoods. but again i have nothing against promoters, and high rises

[pahonu]

3 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

your point of view stands as long as large buildings give place to community life. small restaurants, small cafes, mall groceries most often held by medium or low income owners. which by essence will sow the seed of solidarity. something which i doubt can be achieved with large modern residential buildings. i hope i'm wrong, but i think all these communities will be hard to keep with large modern buildings. maybe the 30 stories building will give access to social apartments. but if this is allowed, then others will pop up like mushrooms beside, and will sell for much higher. IMO this is not a potting soil for communities. if gentrification was harmless, i think we'd know it already

I agree that people need to have community spaces at street level.  That is the heart of any community, and it can be done with taller buildings.  In fact it was done long ago with retail spaces such as cafes and shops on ground floors with apartments on the floors above. Sometimes three or floors above and often occupied by the shop owners themselves.  
 

This mixed use development was the norm in the US and really most of the western world until after WWII.  Then the separate zoning of such spaces became much more strict and cars became mandatory to get from one to the other, particularly in the US.  It’s very possible to create a vibrant street level for the community and allow for housing several floors above.  How many floors above really affects the skyline more than the street level activities.  The key is the mixed use.  
 

A friend of mine lives in an a pre-war high rise in downtown Long Beach.  It has several spaces on the first floor, including a coffee roaster, a little boutique, and a restaurant.  There’s also an architects office on the second level and some other offices too.  Above are about 12 floors of condo apartments.  Nearby are several other similar buildings, almost all mixed use. It’s very walkable and has a vibrant street scene all around.  It’s also right near the Downtown Marina.  For decades after WWII this type of construction was not allowed by code.  Luckily that has changed in the last 25 years or so and the downtown has been revitalized tremendously.

Edit:

There are currently also three large mixed use projects in development near me on the east side of Long Beach at the Alamitos Bay Marina.  The tallest is 6-7 floors, I believe.  This is in area of mostly 2-3 story structures  I’m hopeful and following their progress very closely. 

https://la.urbanize.city/post/fresh-renderings-onni-marina-shores-6500-pacific-coast-highway-long-beach
 

https://la.urbanize.city/post/new-look-proposed-mixed-use-project-6700-pch-long-beach

https://la.urbanize.city/post/390-apartments-retail-planned-6615-pch-long-beach

Edited September 10, 2023 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

this is a post that counts interesting points. but several questions subsist. isn't your friend building because of its age, a 'community nest'. and in such a place like long beach, isn't it targeted by promoters. who want to destroy it, and put something bigger, and more modern instead.?

Paul Veres Esmé example is interesting. but i don't think a community will be able to thrive somewhere where the prices are 400$/night. even though it's a beautiful architectural example

edit: another problem may appear too. they say they're going to keep the facade. who can guarantee, that in 20 or 30 years they won't say hey look that old thing on a more recent building is totally out of purpose, let's remove it. opening then a pandora box in the MB area

Edited September 10, 2023 by jpaul1

[pahonu]

44 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

this is a post that counts interesting points. but several questions subsist. isn't your friend building because of its age, a 'community nest'. and in such a place like long beach, isn't it targeted by promoters. who want to destroy it, and put something bigger, and more modern instead.?

Paul Veres Esmé example is interesting. but i don't think a community will be able to thrive somewhere where the prices are 400$/night. even though it's a beautiful architectural example

edit: another problem may appear too. they say they're going to keep the facade. who can guarantee, that in 20 or 30 years they won't say hey look that old thing on a more recent building is totally out of purpose, let's remove it. opening then a pandora box in the MB area

The particular building my friend lives in, along with many in the area, have landmark status, and are in designated historic corridors that are protected.  Many were developed about a century ago.  Long Beach actually has some of the strongest historic protection ordinances in the LA area, along with Pasadena and a few neighborhoods in LA proper.  
 

Most of the new construction, downtown is infill on underutilized lots, or adaptive reuse of older buildings into housing.  Low rise construction in areas that aren’t protected have been developed into high rise mixed use construction for the last 25 years.  
 

This is just the downtown part of Long Beach which is a relatively small area of the city of nearly half a million, and interestingly, looks much like downtown Miami because it fronts the marina. In fact, most of CSI Miami was filmed in and around Long Beach, with only establishing shots of Miami used.  

Other parts of the city vary in development rules, though mixed use has been adopted in all the waterfront areas as their land value has risen as a limited commodity.  It seems the same may be true for some neighborhoods in the Miami area.

Edit:

I’ve attached some photos of both downtowns for a little fun comparison.  I also just looked up the two cities’ populations and was a little surprised that Long Beach actually has a slightly larger population than Miami. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

pahonu next time you visit your friend, take a few shots please of the street, and small shops around. i'm really curious about it. in the same time one has to admit that huge buildings aren't necessarily a bad thing. the Fontainebleau recently elected most important landmark in Miami by miamians according to a poll is a pretty huge building. his wall painting even became an icon of Miami history. so maybe you're right. but well what bothers me it's when you look at wynwood south area where everything is new, it looks so cold

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, jpaul1 said:

pahonu next time you visit your friend, take a few shots please of the street, and small shops around. i'm really curious about it. in the same time one has to admit that huge buildings aren't necessarily a bad thing. the Fontainebleau recently elected most important landmark in Miami by miamians according to a poll is a pretty huge building. his wall painting even became an icon of Miami history. so maybe you're right. but well what bothers me it's when you look at wynwood south area where everything is new, it looks so cold

I’m not sure when that will be but I can show you the building on Google Earth.  It’s called the Cooper Arms.  I took a couple of street view pics of the building, including the side courtyard for the restaurant and coffee roaster.  I forgot there was a wine bar too.

Enjoy!

 

 

Here are few of other buildings in the area, including the Villa Riviera with the green copper roof (also a landmark).  I have a friend who used to live there.  It’s mixed use also.  The funny thing is that the older buildings are all mixed use, then everything after WWII until about the 2000’s wasn’t, now the towers under construction all are mixed use.

 

 

The last one above is recently opened with retail space in the lower floors.

I found the historic landmark designation for the Cooper Arms. 
 

https://npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/e758dd00-6027-4b8d-9c2b-0292d1e76038/

https://npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/e3ea9d3b-52cc-4d79-a31b-a7d212b561c1

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

i have nothing against high rises. i even think they can be useful. as they slow down the developent into the swamp. but a high rise remains a high rise. maybe it's me, maybe it's because since my early days i've been raised into the countryside. but having a lunch at the big fish in the 80s on an authentic miami river, and having a lunch at the big fish surrounded by 50 stories condos isn't the same thing . this is why i think development of such buildings should be careful examined into details before opening a pandora box. but we need high rises

in fact everyone sees Miami at his/her door

Edited September 11, 2023 by jpaul1

[Paul Veres]

We're just making a full circle into what's optimal for human habitation. In smarter places car centricity like highway preeminence and parking fields, as well as exclusive zoning, are becoming things of the past. Unfortunately Miami-Dade is not entirely one of those places, but there are still many great projects around. 

[pahonu]

11 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

i have nothing against high rises. i even think they can be useful. as they slow down the developent into the swamp. but a high rise remains a high rise. maybe it's me, maybe it's because since my early days i've been raised into the countryside. but having a lunch at the big fish in the 80s on an authentic miami river, and having a lunch at the big fish surrounded by 50 stories condos isn't the same thing . this is why i think development of such buildings should be careful examined into details before opening a pandora box. but we need high rises

in fact everyone sees Miami at his/her door

I understand what you’re feeling.  My father was from a very small town in the Eastern Townships of Quebec, Canada.  The town, which I’ve visited a few times, has fewer students than attend the high school where I teach!  When he left for a job opportunity here in CA back in the 60’s, he eventually settled in a very suburban place, which wasn’t too extreme of a change from his experience.  When I moved to a very urban part of Long Beach myself many years ago after college, I might as well as have been moving to Manhattan in his view.  
 

I think ultimately, the kind of suburban, car-centric development that occurred for the decades following WWII was possible, and clearly desirable to many like my father, because of the relative amount of open space to overall population.  Now, more than 75 years later, this suburban growth pattern has resulted in massive sprawl, rising commute distances, and a dramatically close interface to many unique and beautiful ecosystems, like the Everglades in Miami, or the mountains surrounding the LA basin.  
 

In the past, they cut down the forests, filled the wetlands, or irrigated the deserts for farm land.  Now it’s to build more suburban homes.  The model, as others have remarked, is no longer viable, in the same way it was never really viable in the more densely populated parts of Europe.  Providing density in selected areas can minimize this sprawl, but will ultimately result in the change of many neighborhoods’ character that were developed during the earlier period of sprawl.

I have a neighbor from France and I‘ve had some intriguing conversations with her.  Even after living here in SoCal for about two decades, she is still stunned at the sprawl across the region.  By way of comparison, if the Paris population was spread out like the Miami population, Paris would be over four times its current size, 12k/sq mi versus 52k per sq mi is the density difference.  It would sprawl into a consume all the great forests of beech and oak that surround it, the so called “lungs of Paris”. 

[Paul Veres]

Random recent photo from South Beach, loved the soft darkness before rain and the building colors. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Paul Veres

[Paul Veres]

Boat parking and some Brickell views from Dinner Key Marina.

[Paul Veres]

Here is a challenge for our glass blocks experts - what/where is this building in Miami-Dade?

[miamijimf]

Everglades National Park?

[Paul Veres]

3 hours ago, miamijimf said:

Everglades National Park?

Well, you got the very general direction correctly - it is in South Dade, but not that far. It is off a main road in a residential area, but kinda tucked away, so unless you had to go there (hint: for work), you would never know. 

Here is a picture of the building complex itself. For some reason it reminds me more of European business parks than American places.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Paul Veres

[miamijimf]

18001 Old Cutler Road, Palmetto Bay, Miami (outbuilding of old Burger King HQ)  This was my second thought.  Burn Notice filmed there more than once.

 

[jpaul1]

both above 60

[jpaul1]

apparently, according to Google Earth they finally managed to get rid of all the vegetation at Lincoln memorial park cementary

https://earth.google.com/web/search/Lincoln+Memorial+Park+Cemetery,+Northwest+46th+Street,+Miami,+Floride,+États-Unis/@25.81652604,-80.24590298,12.11777841a,111.05210658d,35y,-2.09983824h,51.61578799t,0r/data=Cr8BGpQBEo0BCiUweDg4ZDliMGNmYTQ2Yzc1MDM6MHhiOTAwMDNiZGEyODEzZjYxGbdOEgE90TlAIR3pZ0WvD1TAKlJMaW5jb2xuIE1lbW9yaWFsIFBhcmsgQ2VtZXRlcnksIE5vcnRod2VzdCA0NnRoIFN0cmVldCwgTWlhbWksIEZsb3JpZGUsIMOJdGF0cy1VbmlzGAEgASImCiQJ3k31fTPHOUARDLfbJHzFOUAZ0CAcVMQLVMAh4Wy0izAMVMA

great read about the site

https://caplinnews.fiu.edu/lincoln-memorial-park-a-history-of-segregation-and-disadvantage-includes-slideshow/

[airtommy]

On page 2 of this thread I wrote a series of posts about the Big Fish property at 55 SW Miami Avenue Road.

In the TV series "Wiseguy", most of Season 4 is filmed in Miami.  The main character Michael Santana is down on his luck and lives in a rundown old houseboat docked at this property.  In the background we see Dawson Marine and Big Fish a few times.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by airtommy