Episode #111 "Freefall"

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

According to some fans and critics, KR sort of actually 'jumped the shark' in S2 ("return to Cadiz" epsiode) when it went in the water...and it did go airborne too twice when it parachuted in the second part of "Goliath returns" and during a final season episode.

Very true! The water thing in “Cadiz” was pretty ridiculous.  The parachute thing with the Goliath episode didn’t bother me as much, for some reason. That seemed more realistic...for KR, that is.  

[sdiegolo78]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:29 AM, wolfie1996 said:

(though admittedly he fell for some plain mutts during MV)

LMAO ! Brenda in 'Nobody lives forever' wasn't bad at all. I agree for Theresa and Caitlin though. His first wife Caroline was kinda cute. But Gina obviously stood out from the bunch as Crockett's hottest woman.

[wolfie1996]

5 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

LMAO ! Brenda in 'Nobody lives forever' wasn't bad at all. I agree for Theresa and Caitlin though. His first wife Caroline was kinda cute. But Gina obviously stood out from the bunch as Crockett's hottest woman.

I'd have to watch that episode again to give a verdict on Brenda (who thinks of these old fashioned names?) but to me, Helena Bonham-Carter (Theresa) will be forever Bellatrix (now THERE'S a name!) in the Harry Potter films  As for Caitlin, her accent was really irritating (even though my father was a Scot!) and she wouldn't have aged well with that rather receding chin. I liked Gina though and she was at least genuine and didn't want to make Sonny over into someone else. 

[ViceFanMan]

9 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

LMAO ! Brenda in 'Nobody lives forever' wasn't bad at all. I agree for Theresa and Caitlin though. His first wife Caroline was kinda cute. But Gina obviously stood out from the bunch as Crockett's hottest woman.

Sorry...but Brenda was not attractive, in my opinion, lol! Very annoying & irritating, too. I never found Caitlin attractive at all either, and her & Crockett's relationship/marriage was a ‘forced’ joke...however, she wasn’t as annoying as say Brenda. Theresa was attractive and I liked her character...but the drugs of course destroyed any chance of a long-term relationship. Gina will always be the best woman for Crockett...not only was she attractive, she understood Crockett and the demands of the job...as she had to perform them herself. But, we can “thank” new writers for screwing that up. 

[wolfie1996]

On 6/28/2020 at 8:23 AM, Glades said:

I remember Don Johnson mentioned twice in interviews that the story of Miami Vice was told to an end. Unfortunatly I don´t have the links to the interviews.
One was short around the ending of Vice and DJ said that it was o.k. that MV end because the story was told to an end. In the other DJ compared MV to "Nash Bridges" and said that the story of "Nash Bridges" wasn´t told to a end so far in opposite to MV.

 

That's because he didn't care about leaving Miami Vice-had become a superstar and probably had loads of potential work lined up- but Nash Bridges was his own project and he naturally wouldn't want that to end, possibly leaving him high and dry at 51.

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Gina will always be the best woman for Crockett...not only was she attractive, she understood Crockett and the demands of the job...as she had to perform them herself. But, we can “thank” new writers for screwing that up. 

I've said before that I like Gina and Sonny together, and I thought they had great chemistry (even though I'm not sure they would have made it together in the long term).   

But I don't think that the blame for that relationship never being developed can be laid on "new writers."  IMO if the top bosses, i.e. producers, "network suits", etc., had wanted Sonny and Gina to become a couple, they would have instructed the "new writers" to make this happen.  I think it's unfair and not consistent with reality to give the merry-go-round of MV writers that much power in development of the characters.  Blame should be laid with Mann, Dick Wolf, etc., if you want to say it's someone's fault.  If they had said, let's get Sonny and Gina back together, it would have happened.

Historically, a popular leading man such as DJ had become by S2 would not be paired romantically with one person for the long term.  That's so that all female viewers could imagine themselves as potential romantic interests. 

I think the character of Sonny Crockett emerged over time as someone who was not able to form a real long-term relationship.  Writing contributed to that, of course.  But even more, the overall direction of the show and the people in charge wanted it that way.   

My personal opinion was that Sonny had enough self-insight that he realized he wasn't the man who could give Gina what she really wanted, so he backed away from the relationship....That didn't stop him from having feelings for her, and it certainly (in my opinion) didn't stop her from having feelings for him.  But as long as they both stayed in the positions they were in, they were never going to make a permanent commitment.  This isn't canon that was stated in the show, of course.  I think it's more than my wishful thinking and that there is canon evidence in their words and actions.  But I think as with many things, there is room for other interpretations. 

[ViceFanMan]

18 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I've said before that I like Gina and Sonny together, and I thought they had great chemistry (even though I'm not sure they would have made it together in the long term).   

But I don't think that the blame for that relationship never being developed can be laid on "new writers."  IMO if the top bosses, i.e. producers, "network suits", etc., had wanted Sonny and Gina to become a couple, they would have instructed the "new writers" to make this happen.  I think it's unfair and not consistent with reality to give the merry-go-round of MV writers that much power in development of the characters.  Blame should be laid with Mann, Dick Wolf, etc., if you want to say it's someone's fault.  If they had said, let's get Sonny and Gina back together, it would have happened.

Historically, a popular leading man such as DJ had become by S2 would not be paired romantically with one person for the long term.  That's so that all female viewers could imagine themselves as potential romantic interests. 

I think the character of Sonny Crockett emerged over time as someone who was not able to form a real long-term relationship.  Writing contributed to that, of course.  But even more, the overall direction of the show and the people in charge wanted it that way.   

My personal opinion was that Sonny had enough self-insight that he realized he wasn't the man who could give Gina what she really wanted, so he backed away from the relationship....That didn't stop him from having feelings for her, and it certainly (in my opinion) didn't stop her from having feelings for him.  But as long as they both stayed in the positions they were in, they were never going to make a permanent commitment.  This isn't canon that was stated in the show, of course.  I think it's more than my wishful thinking and that there is canon evidence in their words and actions.  But I think as with many things, there is room for other interpretations. 

Probably the producers could also be blamed, along with the writers...as they obviously “ok’d” the changes—or abrupt “abandonments” of past storylines/character archs. But, they were the main reasons that Crockett & Gina we’re suddenly “done”.

There was no storyline that maybe was: ‘over time Sonny realizes they’re not right for each other’, or any other character development concerning their relationship. I think Crockett and Gina could have stayed together longer than they did...or the writers could have had an episode or two that truly showed reasons or explained why they ended. Yes, this is my personal preference, but I also think they could have had them get back together at the end. 

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

There was no storyline that maybe was: ‘over time Sonny realizes they’re not right for each other’, or any other character development concerning their relationship. I think Crockett and Gina could have stayed together longer than they did...or the writers could have had an episode or two that truly showed reasons or explained why they ended. Yes, this is my personal preference, but I also think they could have had them get back together at the end. 

Oh, I agree.  Some things just had to be read between the lines (and everyone doesn't have to read them the same way).

Small touches that recurred during the course of the series were the "pearls" I picked out that showed the evolution of their relationship, with him backing off but never getting completely out of the picture, while she cherished a faint dream of getting back with him while protecting herself emotionally from getting too involved:  Sonny breaking land speed records to get back to Gina's apartment in Bought and Paid For, and his words and actions in Irish Eyes--along with her bitter response to Tubbs' saying Sonny thought she might be getting in too deep with Sean Caroon; their brief interaction when Sonny tells Gina he and Caitlin are getting married, as well as her inspiration for the New Zealand honeymoon; Gina's words and actions in A Bullet for Crockett; his visit to her apartment in Blood and Roses; Gina's reaction to Crockett's reappearance in Redemption in Blood (she and Castillo were the only ones who didn't draw their weapons on Sonny).

Definitely the People in Charge could have told the writers to get them back together at the end.  They didn't and I was disappointed, too.  But I still think it's unfair to blame the writers, as if they had the ultimate power to determine the characters' relationships.  Mann and those who succeeded him weren't interested in making that happen, so any storylines that could have accomplished that weren't written.

[ViceFanMan]

21 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Oh, I agree.  Some things just had to be read between the lines (and everyone doesn't have to read them the same way).

Small touches that recurred during the course of the series were the "pearls" I picked out that showed the evolution of their relationship, with him backing off but never getting completely out of the picture, while she cherished a faint dream of getting back with him while protecting herself emotionally from getting too involved:  Sonny breaking land speed records to get back to Gina's apartment in Bought and Paid For, and his words and actions in Irish Eyes--along with her bitter response to Tubbs' saying Sonny thought she might be getting in too deep with Sean Caroon; their brief interaction when Sonny tells Gina he and Caitlin are getting married, as well as her inspiration for the New Zealand honeymoon; Gina's words and actions in A Bullet for Crockett; his visit to her apartment in Blood and Roses; Gina's reaction to Crockett's reappearance in Redemption in Blood (she and Castillo were the only ones who didn't draw their weapons on Sonny).

Definitely the People in Charge could have told the writers to get them back together at the end.  They didn't and I was disappointed, too.  But I still think it's unfair to blame the writers, as if they had the ultimate power to determine the characters' relationships.  Mann and those who succeeded him weren't interested in making that happen, so any storylines that could have accomplished that weren't written.

There were some indications & hints along the way that let you know they weren’t together anymore...but there never was any definite cause or reason. They just suddenly were dropped. The writers pretty much were the ones controlling the storylines and/or plots. Granted, I’m sure the producers had the final “okay” for them, but for the most part the writers were the ones who decided what was happening...so, yes I mainly look at them for the changes & ultimate screwups-(my opinion). Producers allowed them, so they too were part of it, but the writers were mainly involved with the direction of characters—or lack thereof. I just think they could have & should have handled the Crockett and Gina relationship much better.  

[sdiegolo78]

7 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

As for Caitlin, her accent was really irritating (even though my father was a Scot!) and she wouldn't have aged well with that rather receding chin.

LOL !

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

There were some indications & hints along the way that let you know they weren’t together anymore...but there never was any definite cause or reason. They just suddenly were dropped. The writers pretty much were the ones controlling the storylines and/or plots. Granted, I’m sure the producers had the final “okay” for them, but for the most part the writers were the ones who decided what was happening...so, yes I mainly look at them for the changes & ultimate screwups-(my opinion). Producers allowed them, so they too were part of it, but the writers were mainly involved with the direction of characters—or lack thereof. I just think they could have & should have handled the Crockett and Gina relationship much better.  

This is naive. Producers decide what makes the screen and what doesn't. How do you know scripts like this weren't submitted and rejected? If you look at draft scripts you often see major changes between what was written and what made the screen...and that's just the ones that were picked up. Shows with high levels of continuity often combine the writer and producer (or executive producer) into the same position, but that wasn't common in the '80s at all. I think people want to blame the writers because they don't want to acknowledge that at the end of the day the buck stopped with Mann or Wolf or whoever was driving the bus at the time.

Mann was involved in almost no scripts with Vice, but his fingerprints are all over every aspect of Crime Story. The differences are obvious.

[ViceFanMan]

34 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

This is naive. Producers decide what makes the screen and what doesn't. How do you know scripts like this weren't submitted and rejected? If you look at draft scripts you often see major changes between what was written and what made the screen...and that's just the ones that were picked up. Shows with high levels of continuity often combine the writer and producer (or executive producer) into the same position, but that wasn't common in the '80s at all. I think people want to blame the writers because they don't want to acknowledge that at the end of the day the buck stopped with Mann or Wolf or whoever was driving the bus at the time.

Mann was involved in almost no scripts with Vice, but his fingerprints are all over every aspect of Crime Story. The differences are obvious.

Whether it was the producers, or writers, or the freakin’ set janitor...it worked & was amazing in the beginning. Once they had different writers & producers running the show, it didn’t work anymore & failed. From the production end of things, to the scripts & plots...the ‘new’ ones basically ruined the show. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

20 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Whether it was the producers, or writers, or the freakin’ set janitor...it worked & was amazing in the beginning. Once they had different writers & producers running the show, it didn’t work anymore & failed. From the production end of things, to the scripts & plots...the ‘new’ ones basically ruined the show. 

Maybe if the set janitor was as wise as Pepe from the show, they might've had something there.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Maybe if the set janitor was as wise as Pepe from the show, they might've had something there.

Lol...amen!  “Whether you believe in the ocean or not, you stick your foot in it you’re gonna get wet.”  

[Titus]

12 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Whether it was the producers, or writers, or the freakin’ set janitor...it worked & was amazing in the beginning. Once they had different writers & producers running the show, it didn’t work anymore & failed. From the production end of things, to the scripts & plots...the ‘new’ ones basically ruined the show. 

It's true there was a decline. The in-your-face music video experience of the first two seasons was lost and the quality of scripts deteriorated. However, even the worst of Season 5 I can still watch over and over because it was so much better than other TV shows.

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Titus said:

It's true there was a decline. The in-your-face music video experience of the first two seasons was lost and the quality of scripts deteriorated. However, even the worst of Season 5 I can still watch over and over because it was so much better than other TV shows.

I still “wanted” to like MV towards the end, and there were a couple/few good episodes sprinkled in...but overall it was pretty bad. Sadly, other shows ‘were’ better with episode quality (my opinion) and I’d kind of “moved on” by the time Freefall aired—although I watched it. But, it’s still interesting to me to go back through the series every few years, and notice & “study” the decline and the reasons why. There’s usually only 2 episodes I sometimes skip...Missing Hours & Miracle Man, Lol!  

[Adrian321]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I still “wanted” to like MV towards the end, and there were a couple/few good episodes sprinkled in...but overall it was pretty bad. Sadly, other shows ‘were’ better with episode quality (my opinion) and I’d kind of “moved on” by the time Freefall aired—although I watched it. But, it’s still interesting to me to go back through the series every few years, and notice & “study” the decline and the reasons why. There’s usually only 2 episodes I sometimes skip...Missing Hours & Miracle Man, Lol!  

I agree with you quite a lot on this. I loved Freefall and liked other 4-5 episodes from S5. The rest were, just plain bad.

Also, S4 suffered from this problem with many weak/bad episodes. Though, again, that doesn't mean that this season didn't produce MV. My 2nd and 6th favourite episodes are found in this season.

After I passed the first 2 seasons, and saw the drastic change in S3, I didn't know what to say. Be delighted because of the good changes ? Be sad because it doesn't feel like the show I originally watched ?

Especially about the music. I think this is THE BIGGEST downside of the last 3 seasons. While, certainly there were good songs here and there, they were, firstly, fewer and fewer by the season, and they kinda lost the "vibrancy" we had. Another huge downside is that the show lost its "exotic" nature. Especially in S3. There were TOO MANY night-time episodes, and we kinda lost the sparkling of Miami's beauty.

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

I agree with you quite a lot on this. I loved Freefall and liked other 4-5 episodes from S5. The rest were, just plain bad.

Also, S4 suffered from this problem with many weak/bad episodes. Though, again, that doesn't mean that this season didn't produce MV. My 2nd and 6th favourite episodes are found in this season.

After I passed the first 2 seasons, and saw the drastic change in S3, I didn't know what to say. Be delighted because of the good changes ? Be sad because it doesn't feel like the show I originally watched ?

Especially about the music. I think this is THE BIGGEST downside of the last 3 seasons. While, certainly there were good songs here and there, they were, firstly, fewer and fewer by the season, and they kinda lost the "vibrancy" we had. Another huge downside is that the show lost its "exotic" nature. Especially in S3. There were TOO MANY night-time episodes, and we kinda lost the sparkling of Miami's beauty.

Agreed...very well put!  Totally agree about the losing the “exotic-ness” & music aspects. All of this, along with poor quality plots sadly helped the decline of the show.  

[Adrian321]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

Agreed...very well put!  Totally agree about the losing the “exotic-ness” & music aspects. All of this, along with poor quality plots sadly helped the decline of the show.  

I think we should debate in the near future what are top 10 worst episodes of MV ? Would be intresting. I think 7-8 episodes from this list are found in the last 3 seasons, and only 1-2 in the first 2 seasons.

BUT, and this is a big one. I think the latter 3 seasons had good aspects aswell. The first and foremost being....... (it is my profile photo, lol), a nemesis, an amnesia story-ark, other important character deaths, a cliffhanger, a finale, and SOMETIMES, actual new plots and a lot of emotion. And others. But, sometimes when thinking/watching the show's latter 3 seasons, I wonder if all these good things are really worth the negative stuff these seasons brought with them ?

For me, first place as the worst episode gets "Missing hours", instead of "Miracle-episode" and "Leap-of-crap". Why ? While the latter 2 are stupid and bad in their own place, atleast they didn't go full science-fiction with a lot of other ####. And they make for a good joke atleast. Missing #### makes for a bad joke.

 

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Adrian321 said:

I think we should debate in the near future what are top 10 worst episodes of MV ? Would be intresting. I think 7-8 episodes from this list are found in the last 3 seasons, and only 1-2 in the first 2 seasons.

BUT, and this is a big one. I think the latter 3 seasons had good aspects aswell. The first and foremost being....... (it is my profile photo, lol), a nemesis, an amnesia story-ark, other important character deaths, a cliffhanger, a finale, and SOMETIMES, actual new plots and a lot of emotion. And others. But, sometimes when thinking/watching the show's latter 3 seasons, I wonder if all these good things are really worth the negative stuff these seasons brought with them ?

For me, first place as the worst episode gets "Missing hours", instead of "Miracle-episode" and "Leap-of-crap". Why ? While the latter 2 are stupid and bad in their own place, atleast they didn't go full science-fiction with a lot of other ####. And they make for a good joke atleast. Missing #### makes for a bad joke.

 

Oh, trust me...”Missing” definitely gets 1st prize for not only the worst episode of MV, but possibly of television history!!   You’re right...the other two mentioned are not as bad as “Missing”, for various reasons. The only reason I don’t really care for “Leap” is it didn’t include much of the MV cast & was an attempt of a spinoff for another show (which ultimately didn’t happen). 

As for debating which are the ‘worst’ episodes...that could get interesting & debates could go on forever! There’s so many different opinions when not referring to ones like “Missing”, “Cows”, “Miracle”, etc..., Lol! But, I think the bizarre aspect, the writers seemed to want to go with, is what turned fans/viewers off. It got too ridiculous, even for MV. 

[Adrian321]

4 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Oh, trust me...”Missing” definitely gets 1st prize for not only the worst episode of MV, but possibly of television history!!   You’re right...the other two mentioned are not as bad as “Missing”, for various reasons. The only reason I don’t really care for “Leap” is it didn’t include much of the MV cast & was an attempt of a spinoff for another show (which ultimately didn’t happen). 

As for debating which are the ‘worst’ episodes...that could get interesting & debates could go on forever! There’s so many different opinions when not referring to ones like “Missing”, “Cows”, “Miracle”, etc..., Lol! But, I think the bizarre aspect, the writers seemed to want to go with, is what turned fans/viewers off. It got too ridiculous, even for MV. 

MV was an over-the-top show already, HOWEVER, "Missing hours" was in both figurative and litteral sense, over-the-moon (you know, *aLiEns*). Missing hours could've been a good episode, IF, it was used in another show, with better plot. Not in MV......... DEFFINITELY NOT HERE !

We could try debating which of the epsidoes are the worst in the series, either tomorrow or Friday. Today, I've got some work to do,however, tomorrow I'll be more free. Or Friday. Anyways, what is your top 10 worst MV epsidoes, that come in your mind ?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Adrian321
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[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Adrian321 said:

MV was an over-the-top show already, HOWEVER, "Missing hours" was in both figurative and litteral sense, over-the-moon (you know, *aLiEns*). Missing hours could've been a good episode, IF, it was used in another show, with better plot. Not in MV......... DEFFINITELY NOT HERE !

We could try debating which of the epsidoes are the worst in the series, either tomorrow or Friday. Today, I've got some work to do,however, tomorrow I'll be more free. Or Friday. Anyways, what is your top 10 worst MV epsidoes, that come in your mind ?

True...but most TV is in someways unrealistic. But, there are levels or directions in that realm that can end up making it over-the-top & ruining a show— especially one like MV. The alien idea was one aspect that was absolutely ridiculous for a show like MV! Shows like X-Files, sure...but MV, no!! 

I’ve got things going on, on through the weekend...but sometime I will go through and see which episodes I consider my top 10 worst, and let you know, lol! 

[Adrian321]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

True...but most TV is in someways unrealistic. But, there are levels or directions in that realm that can end up making it over-the-top & ruining a show— especially one like MV. The alien idea was one aspect that was absolutely ridiculous for a show like MV! Shows like X-Files, sure...but MV, no!! 

I’ve got things going on, on through the weekend...but sometime I will go through and see which episodes I consider my top 10 worst, and let you know, lol! 

Sure man... Anyways, thinking about what are the 10 worst is actually harder to answer than the 10 best, for several reasons, especially, because we usually remember things we like, and tend to remember them in more detail than things we don't like. Things we don't like, we kinda mix them up in our brain in a "*folder*" called "Trash-but to be kept". 

So, I think that is a reason why, we both don't have a clear answer immediately on this. Neither I have the top 10 worst, just "worst" as a generality. I'll need some time to think too.

Anyways,  good luck with whatever you're doing right now.  I'll return to my work now aswell.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Adrian321
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[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

48 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

I agree with you quite a lot on this. I loved Freefall and liked other 4-5 episodes from S5. The rest were, just plain bad.

Also, S4 suffered from this problem with many weak/bad episodes. Though, again, that doesn't mean that this season didn't produce MV. My 2nd and 6th favourite episodes are found in this season.

After I passed the first 2 seasons, and saw the drastic change in S3, I didn't know what to say. Be delighted because of the good changes ? Be sad because it doesn't feel like the show I originally watched ?

Especially about the music. I think this is THE BIGGEST downside of the last 3 seasons. While, certainly there were good songs here and there, they were, firstly, fewer and fewer by the season, and they kinda lost the "vibrancy" we had. Another huge downside is that the show lost its "exotic" nature. Especially in S3. There were TOO MANY night-time episodes, and we kinda lost the sparkling of Miami's beauty.

For myself, I think Season 3 has the best overall content in terms of storylines and grit but the worst mood; I feel there's a lack of intimacy between the show & the audience there. I love the season though, but at least I feel that the last two seasons bring back the intimacy.

Season 4 is just so erratic in terms of tone, such a variety pack in terms of stories as well: I mean, I KIND of like that, but going through one sitting viewing 'The Big Thaw' and then heading to some 'Child's Play' I think can be a real rollercoaster ride.

[Adrian321]

4 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

For myself, I think Season 3 has the best overall content in terms of storylines and grit but the worst mood; I feel there's a lack of intimacy between the show & the audience there. I love the season though, but at least I feel that the last two seasons bring back the intimacy.

Season 4 is just so erratic in terms of tone, such a variety pack in terms of stories as well: I mean, I KIND of like that, but going through one sitting viewing 'The Big Thaw' and then heading to some 'Child's Play' I think can be a real rollercoaster ride.

Wow............ I think you summed the whole deal up almost perfectly. With a few mentions- S4/5 are a completion to many things that began in S3. And I totally remember the first time watching S3 episodes and being like "Why does this feel so tiring to watch ??"

I've watched even 5-6 episodes from S2 in a single sitting and not getting tired. With S3, I could barely watch 2 episodes in a row without "overdozing".

Edited March 17, 2021 by Adrian321
Forgot something