Thoughts on Covid 19

[pahonu]

23 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

This isn't helped by the general shift toward more activist media outlets and the blurring between news and op-ed in many cases. Sometimes I think the people doing it now have a hard time distinguishing, and that certainly doesn't help anyone outside their realm.

I can’t disagree with that.  The lines are becoming particularly blurry in cable news.  Even as editorial boards at traditional newspapers have political positions, the differing sections still draw pretty clear lines between the categories.  NPR makes pretty clear distinctions as well.

I think one thing that contributes to the problem among the cable news networks is that all the late afternoon and prime time slots are essentially op-ed programming.  That’s what most viewers are able to watch, but many believe it to be straight news reporting.  

During parts of the pandemic I was able to see more daytime news programming and there seemed to be a lot more direct reporting from correspondents and longer interview segments at that time.  The analysis seemed more prominent in the early afternoon programming.  Then came all the evening shows with the well known hosts and the op-ed.  

These are just generalities, but it does make scheduling sense in political reporting because access is typically during traditional office hours.  Of course, most people aren’t able to watch mid-day.  Newspaper readers don’t face this same problem, but are obviously delayed in receiving the information.  

I’ve been a subscriber to The Economist for many years and really enjoy the analysis and thoroughness of the long-form articles of a weekly magazine.  I’m sometimes surprised and saddened at how few people seem to read them anymore, including my colleagues.

[Robbie C.]

I agree about long-form. It's incredibly valuable for providing context and multiple viewpoints. Sadly, it's a form that seems to be fading. I tend to avoid TV news these days because of its essentially sensationalist nature, although there are shadings (I find NBC, for example, to be more prone to what I might call hysterical word choices than CBS) between the networks. Cable news is a wasteland on the whole, but I also have an aversion to paying $100+ a month for the three channels we'd likely watch (ok...there may be more than three channels, but US cable companies are very good at scattering them in various 'bands' of their plans so you have to get the most expensive to watch what you want to watch).

It's been depressing to watch the decline in standards at papers like the NYT. Chicago's have been in steady decay for years.

[Christine]

The way I see it, it seems to be the same everywhere in terms of news dissemination. The most important thing is probably to satisfy the sensationalism of the viewers and not to spread facts.
Also, the statement even within a program ( I listen more to the local station on the radio than that I watch TV) are often already contradictory.
But this is of no use to us all, because it is impossible to tell which station has done good research and which has not. 
In my job, I talk to a lot of people every day, and the old people who are still cognitively fit watch a lot of TV. Unfortunately, they have no other choice. They often get upset because what they hear seems nonsensical and sensationalistic.
The fact is, we all suffer from restrictions that often seem nonsensical to us. For the children, it's bad because many can't be offered the opportunity to follow lessons on the computer at home. There is talk of purchasing laptops that schools lend to those students who don't have a PC at home, but so far this has been implemented only sporadically.
The other point is that not all parents are able to teach their children at home. Someone who normally works in an office is not a teacher. Home office and taking care of other children also makes it difficult to support the school child.
What's worse is that they lack social contacts, provided they stick to the restrictions. Here, for example, it is currently only allowed for two people from two households to meet. However, I often see groups of four to five young people outside, who are certainly not all related to each other. 
It actually affects even more the old people who are waiting in nursing homes to finally be allowed to have visitors again, or who are sometimes sitting all alone in their apartments. For them, the nursing service is the highlight of the day.

 

[airtommy]

 

[Tom]

if you live in Sarasota, FL, COVID is not your biggest issue when you leave the house! 

 

[Vicefan7777]

I got my second COVID shot yesterday.  I'm ready to conquer the world!!

[jpaul1]

here we're slowly heading toward a mandatory vaccine. not happily, as no one loves to be forced, but there is no other alternative. if we don't do it, we'll grab variant after variant, and it'll be endless. For now only jobs that are in contact with the weak are forced to be vaccinated. if they refuse, they can't go to work

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

On 5/4/2021 at 12:11 PM, Tom said:

if you live in Sarasota, FL, COVID is not your biggest issue when you leave the house! 

 

Pretty freaky for sure; what I want to know though, is this gator an Elvis impersonator?

[RedDragon86]

4 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Pretty freaky for sure; what I want to know though, is this gator an Elvis impersonator?

"He just does it to get attention"

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

5 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

"He just does it to get attention"

He's also a hard partying kind of guy, but in the case of the video maybe he just wanted to watch TV (Crockett was pretty inconsistent with his television availability, and maybe Elvis wanted to see if "Wally Gator" was on).

[wolfie1996]

1 hour ago, jpaul1 said:

here we're slowly heading toward a mandatory vaccine. not happily, as no one loves to be forced, but there is no other alternative. if we don't do it, we'll grab variant after variant, and it'll be endless. For now only jobs that are in contact with the weak are forced to be vaccinated. if they refuse, they can't go to work

Have you thought out what you're saying here is acceptable? If this kind of thing is allowed to go ahead, where would you personally draw the line ? Compulsory blood/organ donation? Compulsory sterilisation/euthanasia? All these things could be described as "in the public interest". If you're not OK with any of that, what would you  do to stop it? Once a "mandatory health/public interest action" for anything like this goes ahead even once. Do you  realise that these so called "cases" are obtained by using the PCR test (already described by its own originator as unsuitable for diagnostic purposes) at a 45 cycle setting which is  acknowledged to be able to find "covid" in a glass of orange juice? They know full well that you don't get anything like approaching accuracy if used over 25-27. All done to stimulate a panic reaction in unthinking people. Ask yourself why vaccines (not that it is one, it's actually gene therapy) are being pushed  so firmly and treatments such as Ivermectin ignored and made difficult to obtain privately? In the UK it said 50, 000 new "cases" here today. Now the majority of the UK has been vaccinated and I assure you the unvaccinated are  highly unlikely to be coming forward for this iniquitous "test". So...where are they finding these "50,000 new cases"? In the vaccinated? THEY are certainly the ones in the majority of any dying with covid in hospital -vaxxed or double vaxxed people!!  I'd think carefully jpaul before you put that stuff in your body. There's no getting it back out.

[Glades]

Reality is much more complex than our mind can understand. And I am deeply convinced that every single subject is valuable. That is why I am against any coercion.

Not against measures in general. But there are many ways to promote certain solutions without coercion, not even indirect coercion. Just promoting the development and approval of a vaccine, for example, influences the fact that people are vaccinated at all.

I agree with wolfie's concerns about where this stops. Sacrificing the individual to the crowd/single acceptable "truth" can have terrible consequences. We've already seen that happen.

I wish for a respectful exchanges, result-open discussions, compassion. And I am sure, this is the best way to solve every task. Covid, too.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Glades

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 minute ago, Glades said:

Reality is much more complex than our mind can understand. And I am deeply convinced that every single subject is valuable. That is why I am against any coercion.

Not against measures in general. But there are many ways to promote certain solutions without coercion, not even indirect coercion. Just promoting the development and approval of a vaccine, for example, influences the fact that people are vaccinated at all.

I agree with wolfie's concerns about where this stops. Sacrificing the individual to the crowd/single acceptable "truth" can have terrible consequences. We've already seen that happen.

I wish for a respectful exchanges, result-open discussions. And I am sure, this is the best way to solve every task. Covid, too.

I agree, people, at times, could use a little more finesse when it comes to articulating & monitoring the decisions an individual makes. I find that, in general, most people try to do the right thing and don't need to be goaded into it (I find in many cases that just leads to rebellion anyways). I also agree that reality is more complex and fluid, that's why some bold statements can make a person look hypocritical, since in truth many circumstances remain in constant development and have no completely right answer.

[wolfie1996]

13 minutes ago, Glades said:

Reality is much more complex than our mind can understand. And I am deeply convinced that every single subject is valuable. That is why I am against any coercion.

Not against measures in general. But there are many ways to promote certain solutions without coercion, not even indirect coercion. Just promoting the development and approval of a vaccine, for example, influences the fact that people are vaccinated at all.

I agree with wolfie's concerns about where this stops. Sacrificing the individual to the crowd/single acceptable "truth" can have terrible consequences. We've already seen that happen.

I wish for a respectful exchanges, result-open discussions, compassion. And I am sure, this is the best way to solve every task. Covid, too.

Thanks, Glades. I speak from genuine concern as I'd hate to see any of the good people on here affected adversely by a procedure they truly thought was for their own good. It was brought home to me today by my partner telling me someone we know from work had been on a ventilator and died following his first vaccination. Although I've read a lot about the dangers that's the first person I actually knew that died from covid (and  following his first vaxx!) Man in his 40s, as far as I know, healthy. It was a big shock. Politicians  have their own agenda. Let's not be a victim of it.

[Christine]

Here in Germany, compulsory vaccination is rejected because people still believe that everyone should decide for themselves what they want. However, politicians are thinking about whether people who refuse vaccination should pay for all tests out of their own pockets in the future. Honestly, I would be in favor of this, because it cannot be that opponents of vaccination pass on these costs to us taxpayers.
At the moment, the numbers are going up again anyway, which doesn't surprise me. People absolutely have to fly on vacation and many are very careless about hygiene measures.
I understand that many are fed up with this non-existent summer in Germany, but I think you should still be careful not to drag the Covid - variants everywhere.

[Christine]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Glades:

Reality is much more complex than our mind can understand. And I am deeply convinced that every single subject is valuable. That is why I am against any coercion.

Not against measures in general. But there are many ways to promote certain solutions without coercion, not even indirect coercion. Just promoting the development and approval of a vaccine, for example, influences the fact that people are vaccinated at all.

I agree with wolfie's concerns about where this stops. Sacrificing the individual to the crowd/single acceptable "truth" can have terrible consequences. We've already seen that happen.

I wish for a respectful exchanges, result-open discussions, compassion. And I am sure, this is the best way to solve every task. Covid, too.

In the late 1950s, Asian flu was rampant in Germany. In order to get it under control, people were compulsorily vaccinated, but only for this disease and nothing else. 
Of course, there must never again be forced sterilizations or euthanasia, but I believe that one must always decide individually on different things what is good, whereby the voice of the people should not remain unheard. 
In the case of vaccination, after all, the point is that the disease takes a lighter course and ventilation is not necessary if one becomes infected. It is no different with the normal flu. Even if you are vaccinated, you can still get it, but the course is less dangerous.
It will also be necessary to vaccinate again, but only if we all pull together can we get a grip on the pandemic.

 

[Glades]

12 minutes ago, Christine said:

In the late 1950s, Asian flu was rampant in Germany. In order to get it under control, people were compulsorily vaccinated, but only for this disease and nothing else. 

I have not heard of these compulsory vaccinations yet, nor have I found anything about them in a quick search on the Internet. Are you really sure?

[Christine]

Yes, I´m sure because my former parents in law were young then and my mother in law (I still call her so because even though my husband and I divorced in 2014 she will always be  a very good friend of mine) told me about that.
I had seen something about that on facebook, but in recent days, other terrible images and videos have displaced such posts. In several areas of Germany, including my own, massive storms have led to major flooding. Houses have collapsed, towns and villages are under water. There is no more room for things related to Covid, but if I find it again, I'll be happy to post it.

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

Have you thought out what you're saying here is acceptable? If this kind of thing is allowed to go ahead, where would you personally draw the line ? Compulsory blood/organ donation? Compulsory sterilisation/euthanasia? All these things could be described as "in the public interest". If you're not OK with any of that, what would you  do to stop it? Once a "mandatory health/public interest action" for anything like this goes ahead even once. Do you  realise that these so called "cases" are obtained by using the PCR test (already described by its own originator as unsuitable for diagnostic purposes) at a 45 cycle setting which is  acknowledged to be able to find "covid" in a glass of orange juice? They know full well that you don't get anything like approaching accuracy if used over 25-27. All done to stimulate a panic reaction in unthinking people. Ask yourself why vaccines (not that it is one, it's actually gene therapy) are being pushed  so firmly and treatments such as Ivermectin ignored and made difficult to obtain privately? In the UK it said 50, 000 new "cases" here today. Now the majority of the UK has been vaccinated and I assure you the unvaccinated are  highly unlikely to be coming forward for this iniquitous "test". So...where are they finding these "50,000 new cases"? In the vaccinated? THEY are certainly the ones in the majority of any dying with covid in hospital -vaxxed or double vaxxed people!!  I'd think carefully jpaul before you put that stuff in your body. There's no getting it back out.

first i'd like to thank you for your concerns at my location. but i need to clarify few things so you understand better what's really going on

first my own feeling. when the government announced mandatory vaccination for the sensitive jobs (nurses etc..) it disturbed me. my 1st thought was these people have fought like true soldiers since the beginning, how can we force them anything

then as i'm french, and you know it like in the US we don't mess with freedom here, i started to think about it. the equation is simple. we suffer variants waves. and it appears they can be much more contagious, and also more deadly. these variants rise and spread for only one reason, because lot of people aren't vaccinated. So there's only one solution to beat the virus to be massively vaccinated

here in France the society is based on the human, and citizen rights. and that thing is mainly, if not solely, based on one sentence do what you want as long as it doesn't step onto others rights

so if you know the solution because, there's clearly no other way, and you still behave differently, it's basically infringing the law quoted above. And you decide basically to turn yourself in a 'death bringer'

again i totally conceive that that kind of measure can shock. But there is no other way. And it has nothing to do with sterilisation, as sterilisation doesn't assault the people with deadly waves.

regarding the facts you're enumerating, honestly, and see no offense, i don't see where they come from. cases based on PCR tests? here we just base on hospitalizations cases? deads by vaccine. maybe there are a couple yeah, but how many lives saved. thousands, millions?

1 hour ago, Glades said:

Reality is much more complex than our mind can understand. And I am deeply convinced that every single subject is valuable. That is why I am against any coercion.

Not against measures in general. But there are many ways to promote certain solutions without coercion, not even indirect coercion. Just promoting the development and approval of a vaccine, for example, influences the fact that people are vaccinated at all.

I agree with wolfie's concerns about where this stops. Sacrificing the individual to the crowd/single acceptable "truth" can have terrible consequences. We've already seen that happen.

I wish for a respectful exchanges, result-open discussions, compassion. And I am sure, this is the best way to solve every task. Covid, too.

the french according to poll are massively ok with it. simply because they care a lot about their health. It's not a, how could i say, a golden, or perfect ruling, and we know it. but if we don't accept it, then there is no chance to beat the virus. it's a war. and as in war choices are circumstance ones. they're not perfect, but they're made to save the maximum lives

OT: yeah Christine Germany is living a drama

Edited July 16, 2021 by jpaul1

[pahonu]

To add some information to the topic.  Here in the US, for varying reasons, the states currently have wildly different levels of vaccination.  This isn’t about why that is the case, but rather what is the consequence of that significant difference.  There are places with barely 40% of the adult population having had at least a single dose, and places where well over 70% have been fully vaccinated.  As the new variants have appeared we are starting to see some hospitals becoming overwhelmed with covid patients again.  Looking at maps showing both the states vaccination rates and the current levels of illness requiring hospitalization, the two are directly correlated, almost stunningly so from a statistical perspective.  There is pretty clear evidence over these last many weeks that places with higher vaccination rates are keeping the infection rates lower, and more importantly hospitalization rates.  
 

My deepest concern is that many people are still following political ideology ahead of the scientific evidence supporting vaccination, which is continuing to grow.  By all means, make your own decision, but in matters of health use the scientific evidence to make your decision, not political reasoning… and this from someone who has taught political science courses in my career.  Use crime statistics to make decisions about criminal law.  Use economic data to make decisions about taxes and spending, and most certainly use healthcare data to make decisions about your health.  

[wolfie1996]

1 hour ago, jpaul1 said:

first i'd like to thank you for your concerns at my location. but i need to clarify few things so you understand better what's really going on

first my own feeling. when the government announced mandatory vaccination for the sensitive jobs (nurses etc..) it disturbed me. my 1st thought was these people have fought like true soldiers since the beginning, how can we force them anything

then as i'm french, and you know it like in the US we don't mess with freedom here, i started to think about it. the equation is simple. we suffer variants waves. and it appears they can be much more contagious, and also more deadly. these variants rise and spread for only one reason, because lot of people aren't vaccinated. So there's only one solution to beat the virus to be massively vaccinated

here in France the society is based on the human, and citizen rights. and that thing is mainly, if not solely, based on one sentence do what you want as long as it doesn't step onto others rights

so if you know the solution because, there's clearly no other way, and you still behave differently, it's basically infringing the law quoted above. And you decide basically to turn yourself in a 'death bringer'

again i totally conceive that that kind of measure can shock. But there is no other way. And it has nothing to do with sterilisation, as sterilisation doesn't assault the people with deadly waves.

regarding the facts you're enumerating, honestly, and see no offense, i don't see where they come from. cases based on PCR tests? here we just base on hospitalizations cases? deads by vaccine. maybe there are a couple yeah, but how many lives saved. thousands, millions?

the french according to poll are massively ok with it. simply because they care a lot about their health. It's not a, how could i say, a golden, or perfect ruling, and we know it. but if we don't accept it, then there is no chance to beat the virus. it's a war. and as in war choices are circumstance ones. they're not perfect, but they're made to save the maximum lives

OT: yeah Christine Germany is living a drama

jpaul, I don't know how the French  measure "cases" but I assure you that here in the UK they are measured by PCR test, which is a completely unsuitable method of doing it. Unless you're suggesting the 50, 000 cases today are all hospital admissions or deaths! I might add, of those that ARE hospital admissions/deaths the majority are VACCINATED people. Comprenez-vous? Vaccinated people. Would you like to comment as to why this is  so? And I assure you that many more than a couple are dead because of the vaccine, (about 1400 last time I looked) with hundreds of thousands of adverse reaction reported , some very serious. They say that these represent only a fraction of the real number of  adverse reactions. Please feel free though to have the "vaccination" , in fact have both with my blessing. I won't be joining you, however. I can see from the reports of French riots that the French are actually not "massively OK" about it. Well done them, I say. Oh and by the way, don't get  carried away by the supposed numbers of deaths from this disease. Freedom of Information requests have shown virtually no change in the numbers of burials and cremations (taking the period  2015 to date) so where are all the extra bodies?

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, Glades said:

I have not heard of these compulsory vaccinations yet, nor have I found anything about them in a quick search on the Internet. Are you really sure?

The other question given the era might be which Germany?

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, pahonu said:

To add some information to the topic.  Here in the US, for varying reasons, the states currently have wildly different levels of vaccination.  This isn’t about why that is the case, but rather what is the consequence of that significant difference.  There are places with barely 40% of the adult population having had at least a single dose, and places where well over 70% have been fully vaccinated.  As the new variants have appeared we are starting to see some hospitals becoming overwhelmed with covid patients again.  Looking at maps showing both the states vaccination rates and the current levels of illness requiring hospitalization, the two are directly correlated, almost stunningly so from a statistical perspective.  There is pretty clear evidence over these last many weeks that places with higher vaccination rates are keeping the infection rates lower, and more importantly hospitalization rates.  
 

My deepest concern is that many people are still following political ideology ahead of the scientific evidence supporting vaccination, which is continuing to grow.  By all means, make your own decision, but in matters of health use the scientific evidence to make your decision, not political reasoning… and this from someone who has taught political science courses in my career.  Use crime statistics to make decisions about criminal law.  Use economic data to make decisions about taxes and spending, and most certainly use healthcare data to make decisions about your health.  

Use valid statistics...that's the important part. Verified, valid statistics from multiple sources, not just one source that happens to echo your own political beliefs. Because numbers can be twisted to support many things if they're massaged enough... And yes, BOTH SIDES are guilty of this.

And there's another corollary you didn't mention...travel. In Montana the counties with the highest case rates in the first part of COVID often had the largest number of out-of-state visitors (often the hyper-wealthy who used private jets to avoid restrictions and the low-wage workers they bring in to cater to their whims). Yellowstone County is something of an anomaly, but they were absorbing hospitalizations from neighboring rural counties and the Crow Reservation. We're starting to see a jump again as the number of vehicles with license plates from Washington, Oregon, and California increase.

[jpaul1]

21 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

jpaul, I don't know how the French  measure "cases" but I assure you that here in the UK they are measured by PCR test, which is a completely unsuitable method of doing it. Unless you're suggesting the 50, 000 cases today are all hospital admissions or deaths! I might add, of those that ARE hospital admissions/deaths the majority are VACCINATED people. Comprenez-vous? Vaccinated people. Would you like to comment as to why this is  so? And I assure you that many more than a couple are dead because of the vaccine, (about 1400 last time I looked) with hundreds of thousands of adverse reaction reported , some very serious. They say that these represent only a fraction of the real number of  adverse reactions. Please feel free though to have the "vaccination" , in fact have both with my blessing. I won't be joining you, however. I can see from the reports of French riots that the French are actually not "massively OK" about it. Well done them, I say. Oh and by the way, don't get  carried away by the supposed numbers of deaths from this disease. Freedom of Information requests have shown virtually no change in the numbers of burials and cremations (taking the period  2015 to date) so where are all the extra bodies?

so you're telling me all the french government communications are lies. all french medias are stupid, or bought? the WHO doesn't know its job, and is lying. May i ask you just one question then, where do you get your info, if you don't believe to your government, your country medias, and the most renowned doctors

i don't want to let you pull me into the politics terrain. only thing i'd say, you're far, very far from what's going on in France right now, and about the events you're talking about. as long as the voting right is maintained, you have absolutely no right to uprising. This is how it is, and this is how it'll always be here

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

jpaul, I don't know how the French  measure "cases" but I assure you that here in the UK they are measured by PCR test, which is a completely unsuitable method of doing it. Unless you're suggesting the 50, 000 cases today are all hospital admissions or deaths! I might add, of those that ARE hospital admissions/deaths the majority are VACCINATED people. Comprenez-vous? Vaccinated people. Would you like to comment as to why this is  so? And I assure you that many more than a couple are dead because of the vaccine, (about 1400 last time I looked) with hundreds of thousands of adverse reaction reported , some very serious. They say that these represent only a fraction of the real number of  adverse reactions.  (snipped)

Wolfie1996, we agree on so many things about Miami Vice, that I am sad we are in opposition on the topic of COVID.  We disagreed before on this topic but I have to speak up once again. 

PCR testing is the gold standard for COVID-19 testing.

99% of those who are being hospitalized with COVID-19 now are UN-vaccinated.

And "hundreds of thousands" of serious adverse vaccine reaction--this is just not true.

Please do feel free not to receive the vaccine yourself.  You live in a free society, as (I think) basically everyone here on the forum does.  I respect your intelligence as well as your right to make your own decision.  But I believe you are getting politically biased misinformation.