Thoughts on Covid 19

[Mr. Calderon]

2 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

My wife and I both had AstraZeneca. She just felt blah for a day and had a sore arm. I had a slight headache for a few hours. That’s it. 2nd shots were no problem.

I got astra too. Felt sleepy and with fever next day. Now ill get the second one on 11 september. Mmmmm...curious day...

[vicegirl85]

Moderna here. 

1st shot (December)  slight arm soreness for a day or so.

2nd shot (January) same, with slight fatigue and headache the day after my shot.  Fine (i.e. back to normal) within 36 hours.

 

[Christine]

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb pahonu:

I still struggle to understand how these individuals are apparently trusting of the medical system and pharmaceutical providers when they get sick and rush to treatment, but NOT trusting of the same when they’re trying to keep them from getting sick in the first place.  It makes no sense.

It seems to be intransigence followed by desperation. Sadly, it’s cognitive dissonance with potentially deadly consequences.

The statement why people do not want the vaccination is very diverse, as we all know, starting with: "It's all still too untested for me and who knows what long-term damage it will cause", to the conspiracy theories. I have also heard several times people declare that we are virtually wiping ourselves out, because it is guaranteed that either all the young women who have been vaccinated will now become infertile or the men will become incapable of procreating.
I once said to someone that we would wipe ourselves out if we all got sick and died, but people like that don't understand.
The fact that the same people would accept medical help is, of course, partly due to the instinct of self-preservation. We all know the story of that sports team that crashed in the Andes a long time ago, where the survivors ended up eating the flesh of their dead comrades in order to survive. When it comes to your life, you don't question anything anymore. On the other hand, medical techniques and drugs are used that have been tried and tested for many years. They are trusted.

[Christine]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb RedDragon86:

Did anybody suffer from any side effects from having the vaccine? because when I had the Pfizer they other day if anything it made me feel better.

My family and friends all suffered side effects for a day or 2, headaches and feeling low of energy. 

After the first vaccination with Astra Zenica I was a little tired for two days, but nothing more. After the second vaccination with Biontec I had problems with my arm for about four weeks and I got an abscess in my right nose. But this opened by itself after four days and after that I was fine. As I said, only the arm caused problems and I could not move without pain.
My family sometimes had massive problems with fever, chills, malaise and headaches, but always only for a maximum of three days.

[Christine]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb RedDragon86:

My brother had the dreadful Oxford-AstraZeneca one and he suffered extremely painful headaches, apparently it can cause blood clots. A BBC radio presenter (Lisa Shaw aged 44) here in the UK died in hospital after she suffered blood clots after receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine, she developed “severe” headaches a week after having the jab and fell seriously ill a few days later.

It is, of course, very tragic that people have died because of vaccination, but we must not forget that all drugs have serious side effects and they can also sometimes lead to death.
What I miss in connection with the Covid vaccinations is that it is clearly stated which groups of people are affected. I heard that it mostly affects women, but which ones? 
Is it women of childbearing age who may be on the pill and smoke? Is it women beyond menopause who take hormones to better manage the side effects of their menopause? Why don't they explain these things, but just say that so-and-so many people died of cerebral venous thrombosis after vaccination?

[Ferrariman]

3 hours ago, pahonu said:

I still struggle to understand how these individuals are apparently trusting of the medical system and pharmaceutical providers when they get sick and rush to treatment, but NOT trusting of the same when they’re trying to keep them from getting sick in the first place.  It makes no sense.

Too much misinformation and political interference.

[Christine]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Ferrariman:

Too much misinformation and political interference.

But you can't say that in general. My eldest daughter's boyfriend doesn't get vaccinated either, although he is very well informed. He is one of those who want to wait and see. I don't understand him, because his mother is a high-risk patient due to her illnesses and they visit my former mother-in-law very often, who is even a high-risk patient due to her age and her illnesses.
If it should come so far that unvaccinated people really have to accept massive restrictions on vacation trips and possibly really have to pay the costs for their tests themselves (I hope for both), quite a few people will probably consider getting vaccinated after all.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

But you can't say that in general. My eldest daughter's boyfriend doesn't get vaccinated either, although he is very well informed. He is one of those who want to wait and see. I don't understand him, because his mother is a high-risk patient due to her illnesses and they visit my former mother-in-law very often, who is even a high-risk patient due to her age and her illnesses.
If it should come so far that unvaccinated people really have to accept massive restrictions on vacation trips and possibly really have to pay the costs for their tests themselves (I hope for both), quite a few people will probably consider getting vaccinated after all.

The “wait and see” logic doesn’t seemed very well informed though.  None of the current vaccines approved globally have any long term effects, beyond several weeks, typically two and no longer than eight.  These are not medications taken daily that eventually reveal long term effects.  They are taken just once or twice and the foreign material is metabolized and eliminated fairly quickly.  The material in the two mRNA vaccines approved in the US are out of the body within 24 hours.  These two vaccines ended their original trials in adults at the end of last year and, like all previous vaccines, zero side effects have been revealed beyond the first several weeks. 

The argument that it is an emergency approval and so choosing to wait for long term results is also misinformed.  The difference between emergency and full approval of vaccines for the FDA is not about side effects in any way, as many people mistakenly think.  It is only focused on the long term efficacy, to learn how antibody rates diminish over time and whether and when boosters might be needed.  The wait and see approach is not based on the medical evidence.
 

I hope you and your family remain safe as this variant begins to spread.

Edited July 26, 2021 by pahonu

[Christine]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

The “wait and see” logic doesn’t seemed very well informed though.  None of the current vaccines approved globally have any long term effects, beyond several weeks, typically two and no longer than eight.  These are not medications taken daily that eventually reveal long term effects.  They are taken just once or twice and the foreign material is metabolized and eliminated fairly quickly.  The material in the two mRNA vaccines approved in the US are out of the body within 24 hours.  These two vaccines ended their original trials in adults at the end of last year and, like all previous vaccines, zero side effects have been revealed beyond the first several weeks. 

The argument that it is an emergency approval and so choosing to wait for long term results is also misinformed.  The difference between emergency and full approval for the FDA is not about side effects in any way, as many people mistakenly think.  It is only focused on the long term efficacy, to learn how antibody rates diminish over time and whether and when boosters might be needed.  The wait and see approach is not based on the medical evidence.
 

I hope you and your family remain safe as this variant begins to spread.

Max, my daughter's boyfriend is the only one in my family who has not had a vaccination. Everyone else had it done as soon as possible to be reasonably safe for themselves, but also for the others. There is no 100% guarantee anyway, but we all try to minimize the risk of infection and spread as much as possible.
I think the Delta variant will not remain the only one, but as soon as the information comes when the booster vaccination has to be done, everyone, except Max, will have it done immediately. You can't force anyone, but only appeal to their common sense.

[pahonu]

6 minutes ago, Christine said:

Max, my daughter's boyfriend is the only one in my family who has not had a vaccination. Everyone else had it done as soon as possible to be reasonably safe for themselves, but also for the others. There is no 100% guarantee anyway, but we all try to minimize the risk of infection and spread as much as possible.
I think the Delta variant will not remain the only one, but as soon as the information comes when the booster vaccination has to be done, everyone, except Max, will have it done immediately. You can't force anyone, but only appeal to their common sense.

Agreed 

[Ferrariman]

My grandson didn’t take the vaccine at first. When he wasn’t allowed at his friend’s home, because the friend’s elderly grandfather lived there, he finally decided to get vaccinated.  I think many undecided people will eventually get the vaccine when they start to realize the limitations in their life.                                     For the record, I don’t buy the “wait and see”  decision. It’s been over 18 months. What piece of groundbreaking information are you waiting for?

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Ferrariman said:

 For the record, I don’t buy the “wait and see”  decision. It’s been over 18 months. What piece of groundbreaking information are you waiting for?

This is perhaps the most problematic part.  There will be no announcement about long term side effects.  There are none, and looking for what isn’t there is not part of the long-term approval process by the CDC.  It’s focused on efficacy, as I wrote previously.  So all the “wait and see” decision-makers will never get the announcement they apparently want, and therefore never be satisfied.

I hope the limitations of the unvaccinated become far more restrictive as you wrote, because that’s where the best hope lies in my view.

[Robbie C.]

And Jeff Bezos thanks you for sending him into near-space.

[Kladdagh]

6 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

And Jeff Bezos thanks you for sending him into near-space.

I presume there are no Virus in Space ... 

[Ferrariman]

3 hours ago, Kladdagh said:

I presume there are no Virus in Space ... 

…and if there is “In space no one can hear you scream”    

[Christine]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Ferrariman:

For the record, I don’t buy the “wait and see”  decision. It’s been over 18 months. What piece of groundbreaking information are you waiting for?

I see it just like you. When it all began wait and see might have been a acceptable decision, but this time is long gone. In Germany mobile vaccination centres drive from town to town for everyone who is unable to drive to a  vaccination centre. You don´t have to make an appointment to go there. 
Some primary care physicians are very straightforward about these things as well. My ex-husband told me that about two weeks ago, at noon, his doorbell rang. When he opened, his primary care doctor was standing outside and said she would just vaccinate him. She did it at the front door, didn't even go inside. He was very surprised, but thought it was a good thing, since he is not yet allowed to drive again due to a stroke in March.
What I want to say with that is: In fact, there is no longer any excuse for not getting vaccinated. 
I, for example, would exclude Max (even though I really like him) from family visits as long as he is not vaccinated. But that is not my decision because we all always meet at my mother in laws house. So it is her decision who´s allowed to visit her.

[vicegirl85]

21 hours ago, Christine said:

It is, of course, very tragic that people have died because of vaccination, but we must not forget that all drugs have serious side effects and they can also sometimes lead to death.
What I miss in connection with the Covid vaccinations is that it is clearly stated which groups of people are affected. I heard that it mostly affects women, but which ones? 
Is it women of childbearing age who may be on the pill and smoke? Is it women beyond menopause who take hormones to better manage the side effects of their menopause? Why don't they explain these things, but just say that so-and-so many people died of cerebral venous thrombosis after vaccination?

As far as I am aware, it hasn't been specifically identified that particular groups are at higher risk of the clotting that has been noted with some of the vaccines.  

If I was a woman of childbearing age who had any of the characteristics that are known to be associated with a higher risk of blood clots (such as smoking and/or oral contraceptive use) I would definitely seek medical advice prior to taking the vaccine.  Also it seems that some of those affected have had early symptoms, so when taking the vaccine, informed consent should include discussion of symptoms that should be immediately reported to a medical provider.  This was the purpose of the short pause that was done with J&J--to evaluate the data and educate providers about symptoms to be aware of as an early warning sign of potential serious clotting.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

On 7/25/2021 at 6:49 PM, Ferrariman said:

I have to say I agree.  Since this all started I've heard some of the most ridiculous conspiracy theories.  Such as:  The vaccine injects microchips to track us or it's a plot by the government.  My neighbor, I'm ashamed to say, has no intention to get vaccinated and went as far as to tell me that since I got the vaccine I now have radiation in my body!   

If nothing else, the pandemic has shown me just how stupid people can be.  I'm truly surprised the human race has survived as long as it has.

Yeah, sometimes the human condition makes me ill, contributing to my occasional desire to wear my own mental mask and provide myself a shield (I'll see if He-Man will loan me his; I wonder if He-Man would wear pastels?). I agree, a lot of people went WAY overboard with this COVID deal, and the government stuff (like COVID being a created device served to swing elections) made people even more uptight than they already are. I mean, I'm sensitive too, but even I realize that when people are just trying to survive they aren't exactly interested in what others are up to or "out to get them"; that seems both a little self-indulgent and shortsighted. I think sometimes things just happen, and it isn't always personal, even if it FEELS that way.

[Ferrariman]

I don't understand the hesitation.  You aren't allowed to smoke in a store, restaurant, etc.  The reason being it effects the health of others.  This has become an accepted practice.  So why such hesitation to take a vaccine that will, in effect, also protect the health of others and yourself?  Surely taking the vaccine is much less harmful than smoking? 

I just saw some idiot on TV who owns an Italian restaurant named "Basilico"  in Huntington Beach, California. He has signs in his window that say "Unvaccinated people only"  and you are not allowed to wear a mask!    He claims it's all about freedom.   Freedom to get sick I guess.   Have we all truly lost our minds?!   We have the means to end this but at this pace we will never get out of this mess.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/27/huntington-beach-restaurant-no-vaccines/

[Christine]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Ferrariman:

I don't understand the hesitation.  You aren't allowed to smoke in a store, restaurant, etc.  The reason being it effects the health of others.  This has become an accepted practice.  So why such hesitation to take a vaccine that will, in effect, also protect the health of others and yourself?  Surely taking the vaccine is much less harmful than smoking? 

I just saw some idiot on TV who owns an Italian restaurant named "Basilico"  in Huntington Beach, California. He has signs in his window that say "Unvaccinated people only"  and you are not allowed to wear a mask!    He claims it's all about freedom.   Freedom to get sick I guess.   Have we all truly lost our minds?!   We have the means to end this but at this pace we will never get out of this mess.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/27/huntington-beach-restaurant-no-vaccines/

I think it might have to do with the fact that when you vaccinate, you are interfering with a person's body. That's different from forbidding him to smoke in a pub. Governments are reluctant to make vaccination compulsory because a lot of contrarians would immediately scream that it is an intrusion into the fundamental rights of the human being.
As for this owner of the "Basilico": Let all the unvaccinated go to him and infect each other. As long as they stay away from the vaccinated mask wearers and don't scream for us to pay for their hospitalization when they get sick (in Germany, this is basically done by our health insurance companies), everything would be fine.
In our country, people who are willing to be vaccinated are now lured with vouchers and discounts for events of any kind. I shake my head just as much at that. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 minute ago, Ferrariman said:

I don't understand the hesitation.  You aren't allowed to smoke in a store, restaurant, etc.  The reason being it effects the health of others.  This has become an accepted practice.  So why such hesitation to take a vaccine that will, in effect, also protect the health of others and yourself?  Surely taking the vaccine is much less harmful than smoking? 

I just saw some idiot on TV who owns an Italian restaurant named "Basilico"  in Huntington Beach, California. He has signs in his window that say "Unvaccinated people only"  and you are not allowed to wear a mask!    He claims it's all about freedom.   Freedom to get sick I guess.   Have we all truly lost our minds?!   We have the means to end this but at this pace we will never get out of this mess.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/27/huntington-beach-restaurant-no-vaccines/

Boy, that's a surefire to burn bridges and go out of business. What, receive a temporary uptick in business until the novelty wears off? I think this a fool's errand by this fella; there just has to be mainstream mandatory rules for places that provide a large gathering of people (regardless of COVID; and yes, as a kid I couldn't stand smoking while I was eating, it was funny to me that a decade later rules changed in regards to that). I think the owner should've let things be, as something like this just paints a target on his business and can create potentially powerful enemies.

[Ferrariman]

2 minutes ago, Christine said:

I think it might have to do with the fact that when you vaccinate, you are interfering with a person's body. That's different from forbidding him to smoke in a pub. Governments are reluctant to make vaccination compulsory because a lot of contrarians would immediately scream that it is an intrusion into the fundamental rights of the human being.

I understand the governments reasoning and I agree.  People are generally less likely to do something when told they have to.   As for my smoking comment.  I was only using it as a comparison to show that such behavior hurts others as well as yourself. 

[Christine]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Eillio Martin Imbasciati:

Boy, that's a surefire to burn bridges and go out of business. What, receive a temporary uptick in business until the novelty wears off? I think this a fool's errand by this fella; there just has to be mainstream mandatory rules for places that provide a large gathering of people (regardless of COVID; and yes, as a kid I couldn't stand smoking while I was eating, it was funny to me that a decade later rules changed in regards to that). I think the owner should've let things be, as something like this just paints a target on his business and can create potentially powerful enemies.

Obviously he wants to provoke and he will find enough people who like his idea and come to his pub because of it. This would only stop if they shut him down, and he would probably take legal action against that.

[Christine]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Ferrariman:

I understand the governments reasoning and I agree.  People are generally less likely to do something when told they have to.   As for my smoking comment.  I was only using it as a comparison to show that such behavior hurts others as well as yourself. 

I had already understood that, but I still remember very well the heated discussions in my husband's and my circle of friends at the time. There were quite a few smokers who were terribly upset that they were being restricted.

[Ferrariman]

4 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Boy, that's a surefire to burn bridges and go out of business. What, receive a temporary uptick in business until the novelty wears off? I think this a fool's errand by this fella; there just has to be mainstream mandatory rules for places that provide a large gathering of people (regardless of COVID; and yes, as a kid I couldn't stand smoking while I was eating, it was funny to me that a decade later rules changed in regards to that). I think the owner should've let things be, as something like this just paints a target on his business and can create potentially powerful enemies.

Oh he's getting blasted on social media!  and of course there are those potential victims cheering him on.