Thoughts on Covid 19

[apocalypse]

In Europe we have absolutely ZERO proof of the mask effectiveness. ZERO.

Our leading epidemiologist Jussi Sane (who works for WHO now) actually stated that. There is absolutely no evidence at all that they have helped, according to data. Au contrary. The countries that didn't have mask mandates the situation has been a lot better).

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no scientific evidence from the major health organizations (WHO, ECDC) that they help, either. None. There are, however, a lot of "research" from all kinds of Mickey Mouse organizations but WHO and ECDC haven't found any proof.

WHO recommends them, yes, but they confessed to a BBC journalist Deborah Cohen that the recommendation is based on political pressure, not science.

Edited July 21, 2021 by apocalypse

[Christine]

That's really the first thing I hear. I work as a registered geriatric nurse in an outpatient care service and we received new instructions regarding the masks almost every month. At first, fabric masks were enough, then it had to be the surgical masks and finally we were only allowed to work with FFP2 masks and move around the ward.
But if these masks have no effect on the spread of viruses in general, why have they been worn for decades, for example, on wards where patients with severe burns are treated? My sister-in-law works on such a ward in Hamburg and when I initially complained that I got so little air under these masks when working, she said that she had been working with them for over 30 years.

[apocalypse]

They prevent bacteria, not viruses. Two completely different things. That's why surgeons wear them. This is an excellent article that explains it all.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/dr-jim-meehan/surgeon-destroys-myth-if-masks-dont-work-why-do-surgeons-wear-them?fbclid=IwAR3EGd8rccAjofKKtkHaUXcy0slUDs8pne15dtVfuVjV8myaErqSGwS5mTQ

[Christine]

A really very interesting, insightful article. Many thanks for it. Unfortunately, I fear that it would not change anything in Germany. One holds on to the mask obligation, even if in a relaxed form. We are all vaccinated in our nursing service and our patients have also received the vaccinations. Nevertheless, we still have to wear masks because of occupational health and safety regulations. I think something would have to come from the very top so that this obligation to wear masks at work would be lifted.

[jpaul1]

so you 're showing up graphics showing a huge halt of the pandemic after mask mandatory. then suggesting the big up after that date is because mask is useless. as it totally isn't, as you can't compare first covid with the delta variant who is much much more contagious. then as a source you quote a far right news site. i'm not going into politics, so i'm gonna stop here. but well i don't see lot of scientific facts into your arguments (with all due respect)

[Christine]

I didn't know this was a right-wing news site, but did you read the article, jpaul1? I still don't think that the mask is useless, because, as I said, it is also worn in intensive care units and there is no sterile climate like in an operating room. There are also viruses as well as bacteria on the way and if the masks would only use for the one part, they would not be pulled up there, but would look for other solutions.

Of course, there will always be people who rail against the masks and demonize vaccination, who fight back when it says if you reject all measures, please pay for the tests to be done before you have to travel or go to restaurants.

Nevertheless, I found the article interesting.

 

[Mr. Calderon]

if a denim trouser cant hold farts, do you think masks will protect you against covid?

 

[vicegirl85]

Viral particles are too small to be stopped by masks, BUT--the COVID-19 virus is carried on respiratory droplets (there is undoubtedly an airborne component as well).  A mask will definitely reduce the amount of droplets escaping into the surrounding space.  Although not a perfect method of protection, masking and social distancing are the best protection available aside from vaccination.  Also, keeping hands away from your face and washing hands frequently to reduce the amount of microorganisms on your hands.

Vaccination is the best method of protecting yourself and others from becoming ill with COVID-19.

I'll second Christine in mentioning the huge drop in flu and other respiratory viruses that occurred in 2020 and 2021 (in Northern Hemisphere the flu season for 2021 is considered over by May 1, although isolated flu cases may be seen in even July and August).  This occurred worldwide (drop in flu cases).  While I am not claiming it was all due to masking and social distancing, medical experts believe masking and social distancing were large factors.  One infectious disease specialist I spoke to personally stated it's also possible that the dominant virus (COVID) may have simply taken over distribution of other viral illnesses.

[jpaul1]

27 minutes ago, Christine said:

I didn't know this was a right-wing news site, but did you read the article, jpaul1? I still don't think that the mask is useless, because, as I said, it is also worn in intensive care units and there is no sterile climate like in an operating room. There are also viruses as well as bacteria on the way and if the masks would only use for the one part, they would not be pulled up there, but would look for other solutions.

Of course, there will always be people who rail against the masks and demonize vaccination, who fight back when it says if you reject all measures, please pay for the tests to be done before you have to travel or go to restaurants.

Nevertheless, I found the article interesting.

 

the guy is a surgeon. so he gives his opinion on a global pandemic he isn't expert in. the question is does that person is really 'grounded' to tell high and loud all the high level scientists, and all politics are lying. because this is what he says. He has the humility to say he's not qualified in the introduction though. still giving advices that can lead to death, and that there's a kind of global conspiration. this is what he says

the guy talks about bacteria. this is a whole new world. He's not qualified point

if you read the headlines of the site, you clearly see their political affinity, but i won't go there

who said the mask protected. the mask doesn't protect, it prevents. there's a shade. It has been proven that the covid spreads by inhaling droplets emitted by an infected person. now i suggest have a look at that youtuber who made a great video about that. and you'll see how efficient (certainly not perfect) the mask is

 

[pahonu]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Calderon said:

if a denim trouser cant hold farts, do you think masks will protect you against covid?

 

Because your intestinal gas doesn’t  come out of your mouth in saliva droplets.  This is so basic.  That argument is based on failure to understand human anatomy.  Bacteria and, yes much smaller, virus are both suspended in much larger droplets expelled by breathing and much further by coughing and sneezing. These much larger droplets are far more contained when a mask is worn.  They will not contain all droplets, but they can stop them from traveling many, many feet from the person.

Edited July 21, 2021 by pahonu

[pahonu]

To build on JPaul’s point, I still don’t understand how people will listen to advice from sources lacking expertise.  I had someone tell me much earlier in the pandemic that his chiropractor told him that masks weren’t very effective.  I responded with something like, “but my dentist said they are and neither of them are experts, so I’m going to listen to the epidemiologists.”  Critical medical advice from a non-specialist just isn’t a good idea.  That’s why they refer you to specialists.

[apocalypse]

The epidemiologists actually say that they are not effective at all. That's what the large Danish research said, that's what (our) Finnish research say and that's exactly what WHO and ECDC researches say.

People who say that they're effective are much lesser organizations (like Nature).

WHO made two very large researches on face masks in 2019 and 2020 and they BOTH came to the same conclusion: There is no evidence at all.

Yesterday this was news in England.

UK Government Advisor Admits Masks Are Just "Comfort Blankets" That Do Virtually Nothing

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/17/cloth-face-masks-comfort-blankets-do-little-curb-covid-spread/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1626638295

Edited July 21, 2021 by apocalypse

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, pahonu said:

To build on JPaul’s point, I still don’t understand how people will listen to advice from sources lacking expertise.  I had someone tell me much earlier in the pandemic that his chiropractor told him that masks weren’t very effective.  I responded with something like, “but my dentist said they are and neither of them are experts, so I’m going to listen to the epidemiologists.”  Critical medical advice from a non-specialist just isn’t a good idea.  That’s why they refer you to specialists.

Because many people think anyone with a degree is an expert in everything, and many people with degrees also like to think they're experts in everything. I work with doctors who seem to think that because they have an MD they're suddenly experts in history...just because they have the MD after their names. It's the inevitable downside of a culture based on credentialing. 

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, apocalypse said:

The epidemiologists actually say that they are not effective at all. That's what the large Danish research said, that's what (our) Finnish research say and that's exactly what WHO and ECDC researches say.

People who say that they're effective are much lesser organizations (like Nature).

WHO made two very large researches on face masks in 2019 and 2020 and they BOTH came to the same conclusion: There is no evidence at all.

Yesterday this was news in England.

UK Government Advisor Admits Masks Are Just "Comfort Blankets" That Do Virtually Nothing

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/17/cloth-face-masks-comfort-blankets-do-little-curb-covid-spread/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1626638295

Dr. Colin Axon attributed in the article, is an engineer, aerospace and mechanical, according to his credentials.  He’s not an expert in viral transmission.  He’s not even any kind of medical doctor nor does he have any expertise in the biological sciences.  You’ve made my point.

[pahonu]

7 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Because many people think anyone with a degree is an expert in everything, and many people with degrees also like to think they're experts in everything. I work with doctors who seem to think that because they have an MD they're suddenly experts in history...just because they have the MD after their names. It's the inevitable downside of a culture based on credentialing. 

I agree.  Education and intelligence are certainly not the same thing, and intelligence without the opportunity for education is a tragic limitation.  On the flip side of the coin, not understanding the limitations of our education and personal knowledge can also be problematic.  

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, apocalypse said:

The epidemiologists actually say that they are not effective at all. That's what the large Danish research said, that's what (our) Finnish research say and that's exactly what WHO and ECDC researches say.

People who say that they're effective are much lesser organizations (like Nature).

WHO made two very large researches on face masks in 2019 and 2020 and they BOTH came to the same conclusion: There is no evidence at all.

Yesterday this was news in England.

UK Government Advisor Admits Masks Are Just "Comfort Blankets" That Do Virtually Nothing

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/17/cloth-face-masks-comfort-blankets-do-little-curb-covid-spread/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1626638295

i'm sorry but the WHO encourages to wear a mask as part as a global strategy. And maybe this is the problem. some people read what they want to hear, and forget to read the full stuff. mask are effective, but as shown above it's not an hermetic shield. but used with social distancing which has been recommanded very early too, and cleaning the hands then it becomes a very effective protection

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

[Ferrariman]

10 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

 Masks are effective, but it's not an hermetic shield. but used with social distancing which has been recommended very early too, and cleaning the hands then it becomes a very effective protection

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

I think that says it all.  It's not that masks don't work. They do, but most effectively along with other precautions.  It's the whole package that works.

[apocalypse]

19 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i'm sorry but the WHO encourages to wear a mask as part as a global strategy. And maybe this is the problem. some people read what they want to hear, and forget to read the full stuff. mask are effective, but as shown above it's not an hermetic shield. but used with social distancing which has been recommanded very early too, and cleaning the hands then it becomes a very effective protection

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

Yes they do. And they admitted to BBC journalist Deborah Cohen that mask recommendation has nothing to do with science.

 

We have the same situation here in Finland. Our major national research organization made a big mask research and found ZERO proof of their effectiveness. After a while came out really shady research (which was never scientifically peer reviewed... and according to THAT "research" we got a "mask recommendation".

It had NOTHING to do with science, either.

Media has replaced the science with agenda.

Everyone can have their opinion but you simply can't deny the science.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by apocalypse

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, apocalypse said:

The epidemiologists actually say that they are not effective at all. That's what the large Danish research said, that's what (our) Finnish research say and that's exactly what WHO and ECDC researches say.

Even the image you shared saying that "the evidence is limited and contradictory" doesn't say that masks arent effective at all.  Again, a mask can't stop particles the size of a virus--but viruses don't travel through the air without a vehicle.  Masks can slow and reduce the movement of respiratory droplets expelled in ordinary breathing, talking, and singing--as well as coughing and sneezing.

It is believed that SARS-COV-2 viral particles do have some degree of airborne spread in addition to droplet spread.  Airborne particles can remain suspended in the air for a longer time than droplets and can travel farther because they are smaller.  So a regular surgical mask or a cloth mask doesn't keep the wearer from breathing in these airborne particles if they are present.  But the mask wearer will be less likely to spread virus because the mask will slow or stop the travel of droplets from their own noses and mouths.  If most people in an area where COVID-19 is prevalent are wearing masks, the viral load in the air is reduced even if several people are infected. 

Again, vaccination does provide much better protection and anyone who can be vaccinated should sign up for their vaccine dose as soon as possible. 

[jpaul1]

12 hours ago, apocalypse said:

 

 

you know what, i'm seriously wondering if these 2 shots aren't simply hoax. And i would really appreciate if you could provide a direct link. Because the claims are definitely going against the (good) article i'm putting below

 

according to that (long but worth the read) article there's no doubt that masks had a positive impact on the fight against covid. the lesser contaminants come out of your mouth, the lesser the chances to contaminate. and masks are without contest very good at that

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

regarding the claims of Deborah Cohen, as the above article says there's a world consensus about nations, and populations rulings. which consists in favorizing the interests of populations when these are dangerously threatened. this may includes following the good sense when no real studies are available. in the covid case the good sense (as i humbly see it) is simple you have a dangerous disease, that is a respiratory infectious disease. so you apply the rules of that category of disease, which is limit the spreading of contaminants coming out of you mouth/nose. this means wear a mask, stay away from your debater, and clean your hands

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by jpaul1

[Christine]

I, too, have now done some research and found various articles, including one in the German medical journal "Deutsches Ärzteblatt". This its quite serious as a basis and the article also deals with the Danish study. I think this is the one that apocalypse is talking about. I have once entered into the translator what is written there, because I think it is easier than if you try to translate it to you:

 

A total of 6,024 adults who had indicated that they spent more than 3 hours a day outdoors were randomized to 2 groups. Half were given a pack of 50 disposable 3-layer surgical face masks with TYPE II EN 14683 ear loops with a filtration rate of 98% to wear outdoors. The other half were not to wear face shields.

The primary endpoint of the study was the number of new SARS-CoV-2 infections, defined as positive viral detection in an oropharyngeal swab, antibody detection in a blood test, or a clinical COVID-19 diagnosis.

As Henning Bundgaard and colleagues now report, infection occurred within 1 month in 42 participants (1.8%) in the mask group versus 53 participants (2.1%) in the control group.

This gave an odds ratio of 0.82 with a 95% confidence interval of 0.54 to 1.23, meaning that wearing the mask tended to reduce the risk of infection by 18%. The wide confidence interval ranged from a 46% decrease in risk to a 23% increase.

 

Even if we knew it before, this part of the article makes it clear that the masks are quite useful, because it does not protect me, but my counterpart.
 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Christine

[wolfie1996]

On 7/19/2021 at 7:17 PM, jpaul1 said:

@wolfie1996i don't consider msn as a reliable source. sometimes i even saw paparazzi papers quoted as 'news'. anti vaccine are very minoritary here in France and here's the proof. the article says 110k french gone into the streets against the sanitary pass. that's the numbers i got here too. now the pro vaccine. since Macron announcement of the sanitary pass (hear vaccine mandatory) more than 3 millions french booked an apointment to get vaccinated. to this you can add 30 millions who got 2 doses, and 37 millions who got one. i don't recall how much we are here exactly lol, but we are a population of something 67 millions. so these 110k are quite microscopic to be honest

here french government data. 55% of the population has at least one injection (edited thanks to Glades)

Please listen to this man. I'd urge everyone to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RG3k76zTRM

 

[wolfie1996]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:00 PM, apocalypse said:

In Europe we have absolutely ZERO proof of the mask effectiveness. ZERO.

Our leading epidemiologist Jussi Sane (who works for WHO now) actually stated that. There is absolutely no evidence at all that they have helped, according to data. Au contrary. The countries that didn't have mask mandates the situation has been a lot better).

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no scientific evidence from the major health organizations (WHO, ECDC) that they help, either. None. There are, however, a lot of "research" from all kinds of Mickey Mouse organizations but WHO and ECDC haven't found any proof.

WHO recommends them, yes, but they confessed to a BBC journalist Deborah Cohen that the recommendation is based on political pressure, not science.

Please listen to this man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RG3k76zTRM

 

[wolfie1996]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:52 PM, Robbie C. said:

Because many people think anyone with a degree is an expert in everything, and many people with degrees also like to think they're experts in everything. I work with doctors who seem to think that because they have an MD they're suddenly experts in history...just because they have the MD after their names. It's the inevitable downside of a culture based on credentialing. 

Listen to this man, Robbie. 

 

[wolfie1996]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:10 PM, pahonu said:

To build on JPaul’s point, I still don’t understand how people will listen to advice from sources lacking expertise.  I had someone tell me much earlier in the pandemic that his chiropractor told him that masks weren’t very effective.  I responded with something like, “but my dentist said they are and neither of them are experts, so I’m going to listen to the epidemiologists.”  Critical medical advice from a non-specialist just isn’t a good idea.  That’s why they refer you to specialists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RG3k76zTRM

Listen to this and deny it if you can.