Thoughts on Covid 19

[Christine]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Ferrariman:

So then, didn't God also create the virus?   

 Reminds me of the phrase "God helps those that help themselves"  

Some voices claim that God periodically creates diseases or lets catastrophes befall us in order to decimate and "cleanse" mankind every now and then. This began in principle already with the Flood, if one looks at it exactly.

[apocalypse]

It's all relative. The world population has increased almost 100 million after the pandemic started. 

COVID is nothing compared to the real pandemics in the history. 

20 thousand children die in the world every single day but nobody cares because media didn't tell them to care.

This statistics is from our neighbour country Sweden who didn't have any restrictions, mask mandates or lockdowns. 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by apocalypse

[Ferrariman]

7 minutes ago, Christine said:

Some voices claim that God periodically creates diseases or lets catastrophes befall us in order to decimate and "cleanse" mankind every now and then. 

Sometimes I look at the world and wonder what he’s waiting for.

[Christine]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb apocalypse:

It's all relative. The world population has increased almost 100 million after the pandemic started. 

COVID is nothing compared to the real pandemics in the history. 

This statistics is from our neighbour country Sweden who didn't have any restrictions, mask mandates or lockdowns. 

 

Remember that drug treatment has changed a lot since 1918. Of course, there were many more victims then than now, because many things were not known and some things had not yet been invented. Nevertheless, our measures are good and sensible.

[Ferrariman]

7 minutes ago, Christine said:

Remember that drug treatment has changed a lot since 1918. Of course, there were many more victims then than now, because many things were not known and some things had not yet been invented. Nevertheless, our measures are good and sensible.

I would think there would be fewer victims in 1918.  We didn’t have vaccines but at the same time the population was much less and people didn’t have the ability to travel around the world and spread it.  Just my .02

[Christine]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Ferrariman:

I would think there would be fewer victims in 1918.  We didn’t have vaccines but at the same time the population was much less and people didn’t have the ability to travel around the world and spread it.  Just my .02

Since the Spanish flu of 1918 is also considered a pandemic, it must have occurred worldwide, otherwise it would have been an epidemic. How high the total population was, I cannot say. World War I had just ended and many soldiers had not returned home, but families often had eight, ten or even more children at that time. 
Nevertheless, I think our medical capabilities and hygiene measures make a lot of difference in the fight against the current pandemic. Without all that, far more people would have fallen ill and certainly died.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Ferrariman said:

I would think there would be fewer victims in 1918.  We didn’t have vaccines but at the same time the population was much less and people didn’t have the ability to travel around the world and spread it.  Just my .02

Christine mentioned it above.  WWI played a major role in spreading the 1918/19 flu.    While most of the fighting was in Europe, millions of soldiers came from distant places in the European Empires to participate.  Think Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and India in the British Empire, and West African colonies of the French, and many more places.  

Also, there were no antibiotics yet, so FAR more people died of secondary bacterial infections like pneumonia that could not be treated.  The mortality rate was therefore far higher.  I read a great book on that pandemic quite a few years ago called The Great Influenza.  I highly recommend it.  

In terms of total numbers, the 1918 flu was deadlier than the Black Plague than wiped out a third of Europe.  It was global unlike the plague and massive in scale.  To your point about population, the explosion really began with industrialization after millennia of slow growth, and has accelerated ever since.  While 1918 seems like a long time ago, industrialization had been going on for a century already and populations were starting their immense rise.

Sorry for the length, I’m a history teacher and I’ll shut up now!

[pahonu]

2 hours ago, apocalypse said:

It's all relative. The world population has increased almost 100 million after the pandemic started. 

COVID is nothing compared to the real pandemics in the history. 

20 thousand children die in the world every single day but nobody cares because media didn't tell them to care.

This statistics is from our neighbour country Sweden who didn't have any restrictions, mask mandates or lockdowns. 

 

Sweden hasn’t exactly been held up as a success story among European nations.  Its policies have lead to one of the highest death-rates per capita in Europe.  The real tragedy has been among the elderly, and many Swedes are now questioning if they were “sacrificed” with this policy.  Here’s an article by a Swedish journalist contemplating that very idea:

https://knowablemagazine.org/article/society/2021/what-swedens-covid-failure-tells-us-about-ageism

[Christine]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb pahonu:

Sorry for the length, I’m a history teacher and I’ll shut up now!

Don´t worry about your report´s lenght. HIstory is very interesting subject and you are right with everything you´ve said.

[jpaul1]

19 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

It would feel callous to "like" this news, but I have to feel like it's a kind of karma.  My thought to those who want God to protect them, while doing nothing to protect themselves:  If you believe in God, then He made the scientists and doctors who developed the vaccines, so yes--He tried to help you but you refused to accept the help that was given.

if you believe in God you may ask why do we have a brain. maybe it's for some reason. praying 10 hours a day is nice, but if there's a brain maybe it's to be used at times

i will never rejoice of watching the ill. but that gif makes me want to laugh each time

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by jpaul1

[Ferrariman]

37 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

if you believe in God you may ask why do we have a brain. maybe it's for some reason. praying 10 hours a day is nice, but if there's a brain maybe it's to be used at time

Good point.  

Sometimes I think "free will" was God's biggest mistake.  

[jpaul1]

there's a society problem behind stupidity, always. the world is still better than the cavemen era. it's progressing. it's not perfect, but it progresses. may us be able to see the good sides

[vicegirl85]

On 8/3/2021 at 6:17 AM, Ferrariman said:

 Reminds me of the phrase "God helps those that help themselves"  

Right, that's what I meant.

Edited August 5, 2021 by vicegirl85

[apocalypse]

On 8/3/2021 at 7:38 PM, pahonu said:

Sweden hasn’t exactly been held up as a success story among European nations.  Its policies have lead to one of the highest death-rates per capita in Europe.  The real tragedy has been among the elderly, and many Swedes are now questioning if they were “sacrificed” with this policy.  Here’s an article by a Swedish journalist contemplating that very idea:

https://knowablemagazine.org/article/society/2021/what-swedens-covid-failure-tells-us-about-ageism

Or then you can go and see the actual statistics instead of believing in propaganda. Sweden barely makes it to top-40 in deaths per capita. Much less deaths than in the UK and USA.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, apocalypse said:

Or then you can go and see the actual statistics instead of believing in propaganda. Sweden barely makes it to top-40 in deaths per capita. Much less deaths than in the UK and USA.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

I wrote amongst the highest in deaths per capita in EUROPE, then you link to data that starts with Peru as a datapoint.  Then you use the US as a comparison.  Understand the claim and the statistics before you write it off as propaganda.

Edited August 6, 2021 by pahonu

[wolfie1996]

13 hours ago, apocalypse said:

Or then you can go and see the actual statistics instead of believing in propaganda. Sweden barely makes it to top-40 in deaths per capita. Much less deaths than in the UK and USA.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

You're wasting your breath preaching against the "narrative", apocalypse, I'm sorry to say. Logic, common sense etc went to the wall some time ago.  I fully agree with you, though.

[pahonu]

11 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

You're wasting your breath preaching against the "narrative", apocalypse, I'm sorry to say. Logic, common sense etc went to the wall some time ago.  I fully agree with you, though.

I believe you have tried to argue in previous posts in this thread that the death rate in the UK is no higher than in pre-pandemic years.  I recall you posting death statistics, yet here you “fully agree” with Apocalypse when he states that the covid death rate in the UK is much higher than most of Europe.  

[wolfie1996]

6 hours ago, pahonu said:

I believe you have tried to argue in previous posts in this thread that the death rate in the UK is no higher than in pre-pandemic years.  I recall you posting death statistics, yet here you “fully agree” with Apocalypse when he states that the covid death rate in the UK is much higher than most of Europe.  

Two points: as I've said and demonstrated with figures I believe, the burials and cremations stats when looked at from 2015 are little changed in the UK. That's a statistical fact, OK? (So what were they doing with the extra bodies?)

Secondly I believe apocalypse was commenting on the success of the Swedish policy of no enforced masks and lockdowns, saying that their death rate was less than the UK and the USA per capita. I don't think that says the UK had the highest death rate than in most of  Europe. I was agreeing with the success of the Swedish policy.

I might add, seeing as you are so vociferous, you might have commented on the fact that the CDC has now said the  so called gold standard PCR test is useless at distinguishing covid from such as flu etc. Especially at amplifications of over 25 and it is always used at 40-45. As the figures from this test are propping up the so called "state of emergency" , it calls the entire edifice of it into disrepute. I don't intend arguing continuously about this with any of you. I think there's adequate evidence of what I say that anyone can access. If you choose not to, then that's your affair.

[jpaul1]

like one said once if you want to see the usefulness of a spoon into a locomotive you'll find it, if you search long enough.

if you compare the 4+M deads to the 7.6 B human population, yeah the deads will seem few. the problem is not the number of deads but the number of lives spared. with the flu if you have an healthy way of living the chances to die are very few. with the covid there's no preventing measures, and basically anyone can die of it. the non healthy, but also the very healthy including very sporty people. that virus is basically a kind of russian roulette. you may be spared but you may not. So why having a provocative attitude and putting yourself, as well as others people at risk. If you want to die, i don't care, it's your problem. Now listen i don't care what you think is good for yourself. i tried to tell you that without vaccine you may see the reaper sooner than expected. if you don't believe it i do not care. But if the virus reached out for pastors, or high level mountaineers, and sent them to the tomb, me if i were you i'd think carefully about the problem

Also something that apparently you have missed. the covid if not systematically bringing to death, it generates a high number of ICU patients. when all the beds are full, emergency patients are put onto waiting list which can have desastrous consequences (covid, road crash, cancer...). maybe you also think ambulances refusing patients, or death rooms in hospitals in California are also scam..

Edited August 7, 2021 by jpaul1

[Christine]

I think it is idle to discuss with people who do not see this disease for what it is. There are vaccination opponents everywhere and also deniers of the disease, but we cannot deny the deaths and also the people who cannot work for months after a covid illness. One of my colleagues contracted the disease at the beginning of February and is still unable to work, another was allowed to return to work after thirteen months, but she is never allowed to drive to the patients again (we work on an outpatient basis).
What is striking here is that although the numbers are currently rising again, hardly any people have to be treated as inpatients or even ventilated. That is exactly what we are trying to achieve.

[Robbie C.]

One thing I find interesting about this discussion is the majority of the voices in it are in "safe" occupations (healthcare, education, possibly retired, etc.). In other words, occupations that aren't as heavily impacted by the shutdowns, business closures, evictions, and other ripple effects of COVID. That's an observation...nothing more (I happen to work in healthcare, so I'm also in that bubble). I've mentioned before I'm most concerned with what comes AFTER all this...when people start to understand how this situation has impacted people outside the safe bubble. Short term focus is understandable to a degree, but it's also vital to look at what comes next and understand who's really been hurt by all this. How has it changed social interactions? What normal functions have been broken, possibly beyond repair?

In the US the service sector is a massive (and unrecognized) employer. The whole "look at our heroes stocking shelves or running the registers" movement has disappeared, as should have been expected. Social disruptions caused by the "work from home" elite moving to smaller areas (and driving up cost of living accordingly) aren't being discussed in a meaningful way, let alone addressed. The boost in unemployment benefits here (temporary though it may be) has allowed many of those workers to escape the service sector, and there are claims that it's also forced the service sector to raise pay and actually introduce benefits (but even with that people are often unwilling to back to what is often an abusive and frankly exploitative environment). What's often unsaid is it's normally the major corporations that can afford to do this. So we see more local closures, more concentration of wealth, more small communities disrupted.

It's also had a catastrophic impact on the music industry, especially at the local level. Some venues have been able to rebound, but others are gone forever. Those venues are often important community hubs as well as developmental grounds for new talent, new musicians, and others who enjoy the arts. Sorry, but "live stream" is no substitute, and also just increases the flow of money into pockets already overflowing with it.

I get it. It's easier to focus on masks, who's vaccinated and who isn't, and statistically manipulatable death tolls (like the one engineered by Gov. Cuomo in New York State). But these other questions, the other costs and casualties, aren't going to go away. I don't happen to give a damn if an athlete lost out on some $10 million bonus or one of the Kardashians couldn't go to Bermuda (I toss those hypotheticals out there because that's what the media likes to focus on), but spikes in domestic abuse, overdoses, and suicides do bother me. The real costs, the real stories that don't often get covered because they're uncomfortable or don't fit a narrative.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Robbie C.

[Christine]

I can't disagree with you there, Robbie, but a lot of things really won't become apparent until "normalcy" returns.
Yes, some industries are very badly affected, stores, café, restaurants closed forever. The hotel industry is complaining about too few workers, because those who were not allowed to work have naturally looked for other work.
Children have also been badly affected. My granddaughter (1 year old) goes since last Monday to a childminder, because my daughter will soon go back to work. From her I know that some children there have massive social problems because they have seen mostly no one but their parents in the past months. They don't know how to interact with other children at all.
The students are not doing well either, because not all parents were able to take care of them properly while they were homeschooling, and those who couldn't get a laptop because the parents couldn't afford to buy one have massive deficits. But of course, the kids who were able to participate in online classes aren't all up to where they need to be either. Those who don't feel like learning simply don't do it.
The list could go on and on, keeping in mind that many structures are different in our countries, but problems will definitely exist after Corona.
Masks and vaccinations are only steps that are supposed to bring us back to normality in the first place. What comes after that ... we will see.

[pahonu]

Agreed, there must be impacts that we don’t recognize or understand the scope of currently.  Recovery from the economic impacts of this pandemic will cause permanent changes in some areas.  All previous severe economic downturns have.  Honestly, service work which is the largest part of US employment, has suffered from fairly poor pay for decades.  That may change.

While employment in education was quite “safe” and less impactful on employees than in many sectors, the impact on our work with students was quite severely impacted.  I had many students struggling with depression, dealing with economic impacts to their family, and for more than a few, the loss of family members to covid.  It was so frustrating not to be able to help them with so much of this.  For many students in my community, school was the most safe and reliable part of their lives and it disappeared.  As I start back to work next week, these thoughts are on my mind.  The impacts on students will be longer lasting than many suspect, I fear.

[Christine]

 

If pay were to improve in some areas, that wouldn't be a mistake for those who work there, would it?
But I think that various taxes will increase in Germany. Our health insurance companies twice paid generous corona premiums to healthcare workers, and other areas did the same in recognition of those who had to work more or put themselves at health risk by working. I said at the time that the health insurance companies were not really giving us this money, but would gradually raise premiums to claw back these premiums. At the moment, that's not yet the case, but I'm sure it will happen.

 

[Robbie C.]

15 minutes ago, pahonu said:

Agreed, there must be impacts that we don’t recognize or understand the scope of currently.  Recovery from the economic impacts of this pandemic will cause permanent changes in some areas.  All previous severe economic downturns have.  Honestly, service work which is the largest part of US employment, has suffered from fairly poor pay for decades.  That may change.

I don't think you can compare this to any severe economic downturn aside from the Great Depression, though. And it pretty much took World War II to pull the US out of that one. Having also worked service sector, I'm very aware of the poor pay there (and let's be honest...it's poor pay, not just fairly poor pay), as well as the casual disregard for those workers evidenced by both major political parties.

But as I said, it's much easier to trot out numbers and "us versus them" language (no matter who the us or them happen to be).