Thoughts on Covid 19

[Augusta]

Yes, we have to keep using our own personal initiative on caution, when it comes to these stadium and entertainment events.  Here in the US too, the newest reports say that "infection numbers are starting to go down", so businesses are being allowed to open up.  But we need to remember, it's not Covid infections that are going down---it's just the Delta variant infections going down,... and somewhere around the world one of the newer variants will be hopping in the driver's seat and pushing numbers UP again.   And the industries that are inviting us to get together in big crowds again are helping prepare our next variant spread.  They're not "bad" people for tempting us into the events---they're just consumed by the mechanic of "make money" that is just part of their profession.  

And that's the other thing we need to keep using our personal initiative on caution about:  The money factor.  I want to be rid of Covid, not "learning to live with it".  If new variants stick around, I have to go through a cycle of booster-this and booster-that every five months...noooooo!  Yuck, are they kidding me?  I know I'm not paying for the shots, but I know they aren't "free"---Medicare, Medicaid, Uncle Sam, somebody is paying the tab for each of those vials and the med staff who are injecting you,... so Phizer/JJ/Moderna/etc are heaping up uber-profit from all this, and it's really a shame if that ends up being a perpetual cycle of profit.  
I trust these vaccines to a reasonable degree.  But at the same time, I don't want to cheer and celebrate them anymore, if we're just going to be forced into boosters twice a year in a vicious cycle.  As soon as Mary finishes getting her booster, Steve's antibody count will be low enough that HE now needs to schedule a booster.... and the overlapping schedules for boosters will mean a never-ending cash flow into the vaccine-makers' pockets.  No wonder J&J and Moderna are rushing to tell the press that "our patented boosters are guaranteed to  pump you back up to 93.372% immunity---yummm!---you need to get some delicious booster in you NOW!"  
I wish there was a way we could INSIST the makers come up with a full-fledged vaccine, like the ones for rubela, small pox, or TB.  A booster every 10 yrs is the only kind of medicine we should salute as a REAL "vaccine".
Anything less is just painfully milking our poor countries out of soooo much money.

[Christine]

@ Augusta: I think your wish for us to get rid of Covid is not going to happen anytime soon. Maybe one day there will be a vaccination that, like tetanus, only needs to be refreshed every ten years. 
I don't know how it's done in America, but in Germany, a flu shot is recommended every year, and many people have it done. In our country, it is paid for by the health insurance company to which we members pay our monthly contribution.
As far as chicken pox is concerned, we do not recommend the vaccination. It is done in children, but the protection wears off over time, and we know that the disease takes a much more serious course in adulthood.
Tuberculosis, on the other hand, is caused by a bacterium, so we are dealing with a completely different basis here.
I'm set up to get a Covid vaccination once a year and I think that's perfectly fine if it means I can lead a reasonably normal life again and maybe even work without a mask again.

[Augusta]

3 hours ago, Christine said:

 

Fully agree, Christine.

I tend to think what we have here so far are "serums", not intended to do the job of real vaccines that stave off the attacker almost completely.  

I'm just not happy with a solution that "recommends" boosting within a year of its administering, and can't be easily used around the world without temperature and logistical issues.  

A flu is like a common cold in its ability to be a permanent (or seasonal) part of our lives.  I don't think Covid should be, or needs to be, (or secretly wants to be) the kind of virus that lives reasonably with us.  It seems to be programmed to be more tenacious, more hungry, and able to walk over humans if we try to develop solutions that "live with this virus".  

...If we develop a method that helps us live with Covid the way we live with Ebola or Bubonic (spelling) plague right now (...which is to detect it and jump on it with everything we've got until the breakout is extinguished---then keep detecting for any sign of new breakout)... THAT's a method I can be happy with until we find a true cure.

[Christine]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Augusta:

Fully agree, Christine.

I tend to think what we have here so far are "serums", not intended to do the job of real vaccines that stave off the attacker almost completely.  

I'm just not happy with a solution that "recommends" boosting within a year of its administering, and can't be easily used around the world without temperature and logistical issues.  

A flu is like a common cold in its ability to be a permanent (or seasonal) part of our lives.  I don't think Covid should be, or needs to be, (or secretly wants to be) the kind of virus that lives reasonably with us.  It seems to be programmed to be more tenacious, more hungry, and able to walk over humans if we try to develop solutions that "live with this virus".  

...If we develop a method that helps us live with Covid the way we live with Ebola or Bubonic (spelling) plague right now (...which is to detect it and jump on it with everything we've got until the breakout is extinguished---then keep detecting for any sign of new breakout)... THAT's a method I can be happy with until we find a true cure.

But that is what is happening at the moment. The manufacturers of these vaccines are resting on their laurels, but are continuing to research and search. Even diseases that are (almost) completely eradicated today were a plague for mankind for a very long time. For none of them was the best solution found within a few years.
Take smallpox as an example: it has been mentioned since the 9th century, but it was not until 1801 that a human being was successfully vaccinated against it for the first time ever.
Then, from around 1980, there was no longer a requirement to vaccinate against smallpox because it had been eradicated, but think about how long that took.
Of course, I don't hope that it will take as long to get the covid virus under control, especially since we have completely different possibilities today, but I still think that it will be quite a few years before Corona is perhaps only a spectre.

[Augusta]

Well said, Christine.  I'm happy with your longer look on the situation.  

You also have my vote as replacement for the exiting Chancellor---she clearly understood commitment to any long fight, and you seem to have that grasp too.

Here in the US, my neighbors live their lives on a cell phone app and a short vision of solutions to problems.  

I'm not suggesting that makes Americans bad.  My view is that "short vision" just makes a person....well, too ill-equipped for the new things Life always keeps bringing.

[Robbie C.]

The political class in the US prefers people with short attention spans. As do the media in general. It makes their lives easier.

[RedDragon86]

14 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

The political class in the US prefers people with short attention spans. As do the media in general. It makes their lives easier.

And Biden has been a disaster in my view. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by RedDragon86

[pahonu]

The fact that the a vaccine was developed for covid is itself a great result.  Below are a list of illnesses for which vaccines are still being sought but have not yet been achieved:

• Chagas disease (American trypanosomiasis)
• Chikungunya
• Dengue
• Cytomegalovirus
• HIV/AIDS
• Hookworm infection
• Leishmaniasis
• Malaria
• Respiratory Syncytial Virus
• Schistosomiasis

If COVID requires a yearly booster that is still far more desirable than the failure to find any effective vaccine at all.  Far too many individuals take for granted that a successful vaccine is a given, with enough time.  It’s simply not so.  Many also don’t realize that several  pharmaceutical companies developed COVID vaccines in the last year and a half but only a few were efficacious.  I believe there were 10-12 attempts in the US and just three proved effective.
 

I don’t want to comment on the politics many associate with this pandemic because it wasn’t inevitable by any stretch.  There wasn’t a similar level of political division about the development of previous vaccines. 

[Ferrariman]

15 hours ago, pahonu said:

I don’t want to comment on the politics many associate with this pandemic because it wasn’t inevitable by any stretch.  There wasn’t a similar level of political division about the development of previous vaccines. 

Thank you! 

[Ferrariman]

I was discussing vaccine hesitancy with my wife and after a lot of thought I can partly understand why people are so hesitant because I've been looking at the yearly flu shot in exactly the same way.  I've personally never gotten a flu shot and I can't give a legitimate reason why, except to say I just didn't want it.  I know co-workers who have gotten the shot and became very ill as a result.  This kept me from getting the shot.  I also never realized how many people die from the flu every year.   So feel free to call me a hypocrite but I will get a flu shot from now on.  If need be I would also be ok with a covid booster every year.  If that's what it takes to get out of this mess then so be it. 

However, I think we will be in this situation for quite some time unfortunately. The unvaccinated population will assure that. 

[RedDragon86]

2 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

I was discussing vaccine hesitancy with my wife and after a lot of thought I can partly understand why people are so hesitant because I've been looking at the yearly flu shot in exactly the same way.  I've personally never gotten a flu shot and I can't give a legitimate reason why, except to say I just didn't want it.  I know co-workers who have gotten the shot and became very ill as a result.  This kept me from getting the shot.  I also never realized how many people die from the flu every year.   So feel free to call me a hypocrite but I will get a flu shot from now on.  If need be I would also be ok with a covid booster every year.  If that's what it takes to get out of this mess then so be it. 

However, I think we will be in this situation for quite some time unfortunately. The unvaccinated population will assure that. 

It's better to be safe than sorry. 

 

[jpaul1]

10 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

However, I think we will be in this situation for quite some time unfortunately. The unvaccinated population will assure that. 

this. you roasted me. the boosters are not the fault of pharma companies, they're caused only by the unvaccinated

[Robbie C.]

16 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

I was discussing vaccine hesitancy with my wife and after a lot of thought I can partly understand why people are so hesitant because I've been looking at the yearly flu shot in exactly the same way.  I've personally never gotten a flu shot and I can't give a legitimate reason why, except to say I just didn't want it.  I know co-workers who have gotten the shot and became very ill as a result.  This kept me from getting the shot.  I also never realized how many people die from the flu every year.   So feel free to call me a hypocrite but I will get a flu shot from now on.  If need be I would also be ok with a covid booster every year.  If that's what it takes to get out of this mess then so be it. 

However, I think we will be in this situation for quite some time unfortunately. The unvaccinated population will assure that. 

The flu shot is throwing darts at a wall. It's not a wide-spectrum shot like the COVID vaccine, so you can't really think of it the same way. And as for boosters...the nature of COVID itself will likely require boosters. Viruses mutate...it's what they do. Unvaccinated population or not you'd likely need boosters. Breakthrough cases are a thing.

[pahonu]

19 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

The flu shot is throwing darts at a wall. It's not a wide-spectrum shot like the COVID vaccine, so you can't really think of it the same way. And as for boosters...the nature of COVID itself will likely require boosters. Viruses mutate...it's what they do. Unvaccinated population or not you'd likely need boosters. Breakthrough cases are a thing.

I agree that comparing the two vaccines is not very helpful.  While not exactly a crap shoot, there are significant limitations to the flu vaccines because of the massive number of strains and the time constraints to prepare it for the following season.  That said, the data submitted and used to select the four strains comes from worldwide sources, with over a 100 countries testing thousands of samples.

I also agree that boosters are likely to be the norm in the future.  As a teacher with full classrooms of students each day, I just got my Pfizer booster on Friday afternoon.  I had a sore arm and some fatigue yesterday but feel much better today.  I believe Moderna is investigating a combination covid booster/flu shot for the future, not unlike the combination MMR vaccine.  

[miamijimf]

Thought you guys would be interested in the latest covid happenings in the US.  Like every other issue in the US it has become political, which is a shame.  I'm not expressing my political opinion, I'll try to explain briefly how both sides think.  It's getting interesting, we have a real conflict  between the Federal Govt that plans to impose tax penalties against companies if they don't have all employees inoculated and Fla and Texas that just passed laws against mandates.  The Supreme Court has always held that Fed law supersedes State law but we now have a majority Conservative court.  Don't know what will happen.  The conservatives are not against the vaccines, they are anti-mandates.  They believe they will lose personal freedom (always uppermost in the minds of Americans) if the state can order them to put specific substances into their bodies and once a freedom is lost it can never be regained.  They think that it's a false analogy to compare the covid  vaccine with what kids have to be inoculated with in school.  Those vaccines have been around for a long long time and are proven.  The liberals, now in power at the federal leval, believe that the more people are vaccinated, the faster the pandemic will end.  Also that unvaxed people are a danger to others and nobody has the right to put others at risk.  Since the Federal Govt's primary task is to protect the citizens it's their job to do what is best for the majority of people.  These are exceptional times therefore exceptional measures are called for.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by miamijimf

[Robbie C.]

I still think the easiest way to hit that is to 1) come up with a COVID test that doesn't involve jamming something up someone's nose (or at least stop testing people who can prove vaccination - keeping the testing requirement in place only makes people doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines) and 2) require vaccination if you want medical treatment.

The mandates are tricky if you look at how they're being implemented. Biden came out with his executive order, but then shoved the responsibility down the food chain to a couple of regulatory bodies (especially when it comes to health care). The main threat there is to cut off all Medicare/Medicaid payments to facilities that don't require staff vaccination (so in essence a form of extortion not unlike how the Feds mandated raising the drinking age to 21 with the threat of cutting off highway funds). I stopped tracking most of that stuff when I changed jobs, but the draft language in September made no allowance for testing...it was vaccinate or be terminated. So you have the message of "you're our healthcare heroes...we need you" coupled with "get this shot or we'll kick you to the curb." And of course there was no real discussion about the other frontline workers (cashiers, shelf stockers, etc.) who are at very high risk for any number of reasons. And rather cynically the place I used to work required people to get boosters on Friday...ruining their weekends if they had side effects but 'making sure' they didn't miss work because of side effects.

But the cynical side of me also suspects Biden welcomes the fuss...it keeps people from remembering the mess that is Afghanistan. Short attention spans and all that.

[jpaul1]

11 minutes ago, miamijimf said:

The conservatives are not against the vaccines, they are anti-mandates.

when you have a shark attack phenomenom you close the beaches. when a toxic factory explodes you forbidde people to go outside. and nobody complains. when you have a mutating virus, you reduce the virus pool. and you have only 1 way to do it is to force people get the vaccine at the same time. this is why laws exist. to put back the slow of thinking onto the right rails. for the majority safety, and for their safety. by slow of thinking do not hear the idiots, hear the majority is at great danger and there's no time for discussion anymore

about the moderna booster, i didn't have the time to dig it, but i heard it was dangerous. sadly i don't have time right now to verify (plus personnally i got the pfizer)

[pahonu]

The political component I find most fascinating about the vaccine mandate debate is that, historically the anti-vax movement was largely from the far left, while more conservative individuals followed government recommendations more closely.  I recalled reading an article from before COVID about how anti-vax sentiment was beginning to emerge on the right.  
 

I took interest in this because, as an educator, I had recently experienced the mandate that my students get an MMR booster before returning to school because of several recent outbreaks of measles and whooping cough.  This was about three or four years ago.  Ultimately the vaccines were administered and future outbreaks were minimized.  Anyway, I found the article recently and I still find it fascinating how rapidly the shift to anti-vax sentiment among many conservatives happened.  Historically, conservatives had higher rates of vaccination than liberals as the ultra-far left led the way in anti-vax sentiment.

Here’s the article if anyone cares to read it.  It’s rather long but very interesting.  It also shows how quickly things have changed in this area. Remember this is before COVID was even discovered.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/27/anti-vaccine-republican-mainstream-1344955

 

 

[Ferrariman]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

 the draft language in September made no allowance for testing...it was vaccinate or be terminated. So you have the message of "you're our healthcare heroes...we need you" coupled with "get this shot or we'll kick you to the curb." And of course there was no real discussion about the other frontline workers (cashiers, shelf stockers, etc.) who are at very high risk for any number of reasons. 

Call me crazy but I can't understand why anyone that works in any aspect of health care wouldn"t want to be vaccinated.

[Dadrian]

22 minutes ago, Ferrariman said:

Call me crazy but I can't understand why anyone that works in any aspect of health care wouldn"t want to be vaccinated.

I think some of them just want to do the opposite of what their told, and/or don’t want to be “controlled” by anyone/anything. 

My wife is in the medical field, and we are both mystified by her colleagues that are being so irrational about the mandates. 

[Robbie C.]

58 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

I think some of them just want to do the opposite of what their told, and/or don’t want to be “controlled” by anyone/anything. 

My wife is in the medical field, and we are both mystified by her colleagues that are being so irrational about the mandates. 

There are also some who had COVID already and don't see the point in vaccination while they still have immunity. Frankly, I don't care either way. I got vaccinated quite early. What annoys me in the constant testing push. And they'll keep doing that regardless as far as I can tell.

[Christine]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Robbie C.:

And rather cynically the place I used to work required people to get boosters on Friday...ruining their weekends if they had side effects but 'making sure' they didn't miss work because of side effects.

It's no different here. When my boss knew my first vaccination date, she scheduled my day off for the day after the vaccination. 
The second appointment was postponed by her so that the vaccination took place during my vacation. Again, of course, the thought was that yes, it wouldn't matter if I was on my vacation. In my case, unfortunately, this did not work out as desired, because the vaccination took place on Thursday, but I got sick only on Sunday and was absent for a whole week. 

[vicegirl85]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:58 PM, Ferrariman said:

(snipped) I've personally never gotten a flu shot and I can't give a legitimate reason why, except to say I just didn't want it.  I know co-workers who have gotten the shot and became very ill as a result.  This kept me from getting the shot.  I also never realized how many people die from the flu every year.   So feel free to call me a hypocrite but I will get a flu shot from now on.  If need be I would also be ok with a covid booster every year.  If that's what it takes to get out of this mess then so be it.  (snipped)

Great news!  I've gotten a flu shot every year since 1976 (including the swine flu vaccine).  In spite of working at the bedside with sick people for over 30 years before I took my last position that wasn't direct patient care, I have never had flu and never become sick "from the flu shot."  Hopefully that will reassure some people.

Pahonu gave a really good and brief explanation of the process of developing the flu vaccine, which is evaluated every year.  In the US, the specific strains of flu that were seen in Australia/ NZ during the prior year are studied, as their flu season takes place 6 months before ours.  Those strains are believed to be the ones most likely to be in circulation in the US during our flu season.  So between basically January and August, the vaccine manufacturers target production to combat the top 4 strains, normally 2 different strains of influenza A and 2 different influenza B strains.  Currently most flu vaccines in use do protect against 4 strains (quadrivalent) although I believe there may still be a few trivalent (protect agains 2 A and 1 B strains) vaccines.  This way, the vaccine can protect against what are believed to represent the largest variety of the most likely strains to circulate in the US during the upcoming flu season.

All current flu vaccines contain only killed virus particles, not live virus (like the measles vaccine contains),  The flu vaccine cannot give you flu.  However, it takes about 2 weeks for the body's immune system to mount an optimal response.  Therefore, it's possible to be exposed and become ill with flu either shortly before getting vaccinated or within the 14 days afterward, before immunity is built up to a protective level.  Or, it's also possible to become ill with any number of other viral respiratory illnesses that have similar symptoms, but that aren't susceptible to the influenza vaccine because they're not influenza.

Or, of course, because it is the nature of viruses to mutate, mutations may occur that increase the flu viruses' resistance to the vaccine, or a different strain that the predicted ones may end up being the predominant strain.

It is believed that annual flu vaccine can leave some lingering immunity that over the years helps the body to fight off new strains even if not specifically targeted by the year's vaccine.  However, the duration of effectiveness of each year's vaccine is believed to wane after a number of months due to the frequency of viral mutations.  

The high-dose flu vaccine marketed to people over 65 contain 4 times the amount of antigen as regular flu vaccine, wth the goal of boosting the immune response of people in that age group, because typically older people's immune system doesn't respond as robustly as younger people.  Studies that have been done have demonstrated a statistically significant benefit to the over-65 adults who received the high-dose, compared to standard flu vaccine in the same age group.

Here's a good article from CDC:  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/65over.htm

I also like Mayocinic.com for good information on medical topics, geared to non-medical professionals:  https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/expert-answers/fluzone/faq-20058032

Sorry for yammering on and on!

[miamijimf]

Got my Moderna booster shot yesterday, no reaction or problems.  It had been 8 months since my second shot.  This booster is only half the dosage of one of the first two shots.

[Dadrian]

8 hours ago, miamijimf said:

Got my Moderna booster shot yesterday, no reaction or problems.  It had been 8 months since my second shot.  This booster is only half the dosage of one of the first two shots.

The wife and I have the Moderna booster coming up, too. I will keep you posted.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by Dadrian