Thoughts on Covid 19

[Gary1911A1]

I found out yesterday that the male neighbor across the street from me died of Covid. His wife survived it and was released in time for her husband's burial. They both lived with her mother who is in her mid 90s' who didn't get sick at all. They are very religious and may not of gotten vaccinated. I didn't ask as I thought it just wasn't the time. It's sad as I have two friends who have not been vaccinated even once and I worry about them. 

 

 

[Ferrariman]

Just this morning, Pfizer's vaccine has been given full approval by the FDA.  Many think this will persuade the hesitant to get vaccinated.  Let's see what happens.

[vicegirl85]

13 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

We lockdown, ODs start to spike, domestic abuse rates climb, businesses fail, mental health ends up in the toilet. But those are all costs people seem to think you can blow off or deny.

There are two sides (at least) to everything. Lockdowns aren't a real answer, but they make some people feel like they're doing something. Obviously no one's going to learn from that, either.

Viruses mutate. It's what they do. And now they're using breakthrough infections as an excuse to justify yet more lockdowns. You want a solution? Try refusing treatment for any condition to people who haven't been vaccinated. Come up with testing that doesn't involve jamming stuff up peoples' noses every other day even if they're vaccinated. Develop medications that ease symptoms. And actually address the other impacts this is having on peoples' lives. I fully expect this post to be answered by yet another wall of data (suspect or otherwise), but data is just a screen or a crutch for the impact this is having on real people. People who've been vaccinated but still are treated like they're disease-bearing scum. People who see their dreams, their dreams for their children, and in some cases their own sobriety or sanity being stripped away in the name of some lockdown illusion or fantasy safety pushed by people who ignore precautions themselves because they're in positions of wealth or power (or both) and can do as they will.

Robbie, there is so much truth in what you have said, especially your last sentence.  

I want everyone to be vaccinated who can be, because it's the best way to slow the virus spread.  But at least, if someone doesn't want to be vaccinated, they should be willing to take extra precautions such as avoiding crowds, masking, keeping out of others' personal space, and staying at home when they have symptoms of illness.

Universities, businesses, resorts, cruise lines, etc. that require proof of vaccine or a negative test within the past 48 hours will probably do more to incentivize vaccination than government mandates.

A bright spot--many organizations that are trying to push people to be vaccinated (think universities, sports teams) have said that vaccinated participants don't have to be tested unless symptomatic, and don't have to quarantine after an exposure unless they become symptomatic (this is in the US).  I understand in some countries people must present a vaccine passport either to travel or to gain admittance to some venues.  Of course this is anathema to some ardent advocates of American individual freedom, but I'd be willing it it meant we could anticipate real progress against COVID-19.   

[Ferrariman]

We’re all for freedom but in my opinion, some freedoms should end when it effects other people’s lives.  We accept the fact that you can’t smoke indoors because it affects other people’s health. Why should this be any different?  I don’t think this whole mess would be as bad as it is without political interference. 

 

[Dadrian]

It seems to me the whole “putting something in my body” is the main rant around here (my town). 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Dadrian

[Christine]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

It seems to me the whole “putting something in my body” is the main rant around here. 

This is not about "putting something in the body" because that could be anything. 
Like I'm sure everyone here, I'm getting tired of hearing over and over again why someone rejects vaccination, because the same people are simultaneously screaming the loudest when it comes to lifting the mask requirement, allowing large events again, and avoiding the next lockdown at all costs.
Frankly, I'd also like to attend a book convention again and read in front of real audiences instead of just online, but I'm patient and hope that even the unreasonable will eventually come to their senses.

[Dadrian]

My wife and I got the vaccine, so we seem to be in the minority with most of the people I deal with on a daily basis. 

I’m not sure if they are joking sometimes, but their arguments for not getting the shot(s) are always comical to me. 

[Christine]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

My wife and I got the vaccine, so we seem to be in the minority with most of the people I deal with on a daily basis. 

I’m not sure if they are joking sometimes, but their arguments for not getting the shot(s) are always comical to me. 

That's how I experience it here, too. People have the strangest excuses why they don't want to get vaccinated. Often they say they don't know if they can do it from a health point of view. In that case, I always have a good counterargument. One of my patients suffers from a special form of MS and her doctor was afraid that the vaccination would cause her to have an attack. He still found a way and the woman could be vaccinated against Covid. When I mention this, people are quiet, but that doesn't mean it changes their minds. It just took the wind out of their sails.

[king77]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

It seems to me the whole “putting something in my body” is the main rant around here (my town). 

Then lighting up a cigarette, while downing a 1/5 of Jack and after the first puff and after 2 minutes of coughing ranting some more about the poison they read about on a conspiracy website vaccines are.

[miamijimf]

4 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

We’re all for freedom but in my opinion, some freedoms should end when it effects other people’s lives.  We accept the fact that you can’t smoke indoors because it affects other people’s health. Why should this be any different?  I don’t think this whole mess would be as bad as it is without political interference. 

 

I'm vaccinated and believe all should be as well but I disagree with one point you made, "some freedoms should end."  If we live by and believe in the U.S. Constitution, the best hope for mankind, no freedoms outlined by our Founding Fathers should ever end, regardless of the consequences.  As Patrick Henry said, "Give me Liberty or give me death."  If people stupidly don't want to be vaccinated, that's their choice.  Maybe they have chosen death and put their relatives and friends in danger, but that's their choice. Taking that choice away from them would do more harm than their illness or the illness of others.  We have too much government control of our lives as it is.

Edited August 23, 2021 by miamijimf

[jpaul1]

jim as Ferrariman posted we don't live in a full scale liberty world. You need to respect red lights in car, you can't insult people in the street. liberty ends where others start. sanitary pass (i don't know how you call this in english) doesn't force anyone. it just says ok you're into a kind of selfish madness fine, but you won't get access to the same public places than the vaccinated. because we simply don't want you to hurt anyone. it's basically a red light. nothing else

That government control thing is typically american. We don't have this in Europe. Your mistrust towards your government is still a mystery to me

Edited August 23, 2021 by jpaul1

[Ferrariman]

2 hours ago, miamijimf said:

I'm vaccinated and believe all should be as well but I disagree with one point you made, "some freedoms should end."  If we live by and believe in the U.S. Constitution, the best hope for mankind, no freedoms outlined by our Founding Fathers should ever end, regardless of the consequences.  As Patrick Henry said, "Give me Liberty or give me death."  If people stupidly don't want to be vaccinated, that's their choice.  Maybe they have chosen death and put their relatives and friends in danger, but that's their choice. Taking that choice away from them would do more harm than their illness or the illness of others.  We have too much government control of our lives as it is.

I hear you Jim and I believe in the constitution as well but I don't think the Founding Fathers ever had to deal with what we're going through.  "Give me liberty or give me death"?  Ok fine, if someone wants to willingly end it all, I'm all for his freedom to do so, just go do it in a way that doesn't interfere with anyone else's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.  

Freedom should be a 2 way street where we all take care of each other.  The only problem is that requires common sense, which is sorely lacking in the real world.   

Peace

[Robbie C.]

23 minutes ago, Ferrariman said:

I hear you Jim and I believe in the constitution as well but I don't think the Founding Fathers ever had to deal with what we're going through.  "Give me liberty or give me death"?  Ok fine, if someone wants to willingly end it all, I'm all for his freedom to do so, just go do it in a way that doesn't interfere with anyone else's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.  

Freedom should be a 2 way street where we all take care of each other.  The only problem is that requires common sense, which is sorely lacking in the real world.   

Peace

Actually they did. Cholera used to devastate major cities. The solution? The rich fled to the countryside until the plague burned itself out while the poor died in droves (which should sound familiar). Modern life and conveniences allowed us to forget that part of our history.

Distrust of national government has always been a thing in the US...mostly because, I think, of the size of the country. Local government is far more real to most people, with the Feds often seen as remote overlords. What COVID has done that's disturbing is it shattered the trust in LOCAL government, which in the US is a big deal. And if you look at areas with widespread vaccine penetration issues, it's often areas that have felt abandoned by BOTH the Federal and local government well before COVID.

And that's as deep into this stuff as I'm going to go. Others can dicker about who's had a shot and who hasn't, who's virtuous and who isn't. I'm more worried about the person who can't get away from an abusive partner because there's no place to go. The addict who's falling back into old habits because they don't see any hope. The family who's given up on a business that's been in the family for multiple generations because it was burned out by idiots or choked out of business by lockdowns. And those fighting off their own demons and feeling more and more abandoned and hopeless. That's where my concern, my empathy, goes.

[mjcmmv]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Actually they did. Cholera used to devastate major cities. The solution? The rich fled to the countryside until the plague burned itself out while the poor died in droves (which should sound familiar). Modern life and conveniences allowed us to forget that part of our history.

Distrust of national government has always been a thing in the US...mostly because, I think, of the size of the country. Local government is far more real to most people, with the Feds often seen as remote overlords. What COVID has done that's disturbing is it shattered the trust in LOCAL government, which in the US is a big deal. And if you look at areas with widespread vaccine penetration issues, it's often areas that have felt abandoned by BOTH the Federal and local government well before COVID.

And that's as deep into this stuff as I'm going to go. Others can dicker about who's had a shot and who hasn't, who's virtuous and who isn't. I'm more worried about the person who can't get away from an abusive partner because there's no place to go. The addict who's falling back into old habits because they don't see any hope. The family who's given up on a business that's been in the family for multiple generations because it was burned out by idiots or choked out of business by lockdowns. And those fighting off their own demons and feeling more and more abandoned and hopeless. That's where my concern, my empathy, goes.

Well said...

 

[pahonu]

6 hours ago, miamijimf said:

I'm vaccinated and believe all should be as well but I disagree with one point you made, "some freedoms should end."  If we live by and believe in the U.S. Constitution, the best hope for mankind, no freedoms outlined by our Founding Fathers should ever end, regardless of the consequences.  As Patrick Henry said, "Give me Liberty or give me death."  If people stupidly don't want to be vaccinated, that's their choice.  Maybe they have chosen death and put their relatives and friends in danger, but that's their choice. Taking that choice away from them would do more harm than their illness or the illness of others.  We have too much government control of our lives as it is.

Over 200 years of case law in the US Supreme Court has established that none of the rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights or subsequent amendments are without limit.  Personal liberties extend only to the point that they infringe on other’s liberties.  

By way of example, religious liberty, held so sacrosanct in our nation, cannot extend to the point that it limits other’s liberties.  The claiming of a religious belief that ultimately harms a child by denying them medical treatment as the Christian Science Church has done in the past, has been clearly denounced by the courts and led to prosecution for manslaughter of parents whose children died because they received only prayer as opposed to medical treatment.  See Commonwealth v. Twitchell and other cases.  

The late conservative justice Antonin Scalia in his majority opinion in Heller v. D.C. regarding handgun rights included very clearly in his opinion:

“Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.” 
 

These are just two examples, but I believe too many individuals today have lost sight of this basic premise regarding individual rights.  The court has been equally as clear in it’s case law regarding vaccination as it relates to the public welfare dating back to Jacobsen v. Massachusetts over a century ago.  The court ruled then and it has been upheld numerous times since that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the authority of the state to protect the public welfare.  I believe this  clearly applies to our current circumstances and the pandemic.
 

[jpaul1]

11 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

And that's as deep into this stuff as I'm going to go. Others can dicker about who's had a shot and who hasn't, who's virtuous and who isn't. I'm more worried about the person who can't get away from an abusive partner because there's no place to go. The addict who's falling back into old habits because they don't see any hope. The family who's given up on a business that's been in the family for multiple generations because it was burned out by idiots or choked out of business by lockdowns. And those fighting off their own demons and feeling more and more abandoned and hopeless. That's where my concern, my empathy, goes.

so according to your arguments your grand-father company is more important than his life. or maybe you're saying the covid isn't dangerous?

also the lockdown bringing mental issues is not an argument to me. and i even suspect some governments to use this to keep the economy running. I mean lockdowns have never been hard. people had always been able to go out for an hour. it's lockdown against death. so if you can't make up your mind about this, then yeah you may get mental issues, but don't blame the virus, blame your stupidity. because if you beat your wife, it's because you're stupid, and nothing else. But whatever we may say some people will never acknowledge

people cry for a month of lockdown, but they don't make such of a big deal when a forest wildfire has destroyed their house. including all their memories, and boats.. and they had to be relocated for months. they move on. But when we're talking of sparing lives, then 'oh no, i'm gonna beat my wife'

regarding some americans mistrust towards their central government, i'm gonna give you my personal point of view. I think this is a deeply insane thing. How could to you pretend to be unite, if you can't trust the only thing that is common to all, and that can agregate you all

[Robbie C.]

You asked, I answered. That’s it. I’ll leave you to arguing virtues now. Clearly you don’t understand how lockdowns have cut off access to many services for people who needed them, and that’s the bill that will come due.  And has come due for many people. Vaccinated or not.  Mocking that won’t make it go away. 
If you somehow got me saying COVID isn’t dangerous out of what I wrote…there’s no point. 

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

You asked, I answered. That’s it. I’ll leave you to arguing virtues now. Clearly you don’t understand how lockdowns have cut off access to many services for people who needed them, and that’s the bill that will come due.  And has come due for many people. Vaccinated or not.  Mocking that won’t make it go away. 
If you somehow got me saying COVID isn’t dangerous out of what I wrote…there’s no point. 

and i said what i said, that for some persons a lockdown is more important than being alive

[Glades]

I have thought over and over again what I want to write on the subject of Corona. What approach to Corona I would like to see.

And I have always come back to the thought that first and foremost I would like us to listen to each other again kindly. That we respect the conviction of our counterpart, even if it contradicts our own. That we do not look for what we think is wrong in another person's position, but for what we can connect with. Even if it is only a little.

That we are in good contact with our friends and family, no matter what their opinions are on any subject. Regardless. That´s how it is with my friends and family. And I am very grateful for that. It is what helps me the most during these difficult times.

I actually have no other solution to the Corona problem than this: Let's talk to each other again openly, without fear, and find solutions that everyone can support. I´m convinced, there is no such thing as "no alternative".

[Ferrariman]

1 hour ago, Glades said:

I have thought over and over again what I want to write on the subject of Corona. What approach to Corona I would like to see.

And I have always come back to the thought that first and foremost I would like us to listen to each other again kindly. That we respect the conviction of our counterpart, even if it contradicts our own. That we do not look for what we think is wrong in another person's position, but for what we can connect with. Even if it is only a little.

That we are in good contact with our friends and family, no matter what their opinions are on any subject. Regardless. That´s how it is with my friends and family. And I am very grateful for that. It is what helps me the most during these difficult times.

I actually have no other solution to the Corona problem than this: Let's talk to each other again openly, without fear, and find solutions that everyone can support. I´m convinced, there is no such thing as "no alternative".

Well said!  

[jpaul1]

I fully agree with you Glades. And i add that my precedent post wasn't obviously toward any particular member here. I was speaking of people who complain about having mental issues irl because of the covid. people who already know me a little bit, should know that under no circumstance i would autorize myself to insult a member. I was just pointing out that sometimes when a deadly virus is around there's no other way than to lockdown. It's like that

Edited August 24, 2021 by jpaul1

[Robbie C.]

3 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

I fully agree with you Glades. And i add that my precedent post wasn't obviously toward any particular member here. I was speaking of people who complain about having mental issues irl because of the covid. people who already know me a little bit, should know that under no circumstance i would autorize myself to insult a member. I was just pointing out that sometimes when a deadly virus is around there's no other way than to lockdown. It's like that

And I'm referring to people who had mental health issues BEFORE COVID who now find themselves cut off from aid, in addition to those who may have been borderline before and have had their issues pushed to the forefront by lockdowns and other issues. Many of the domestic violence issues existed before lockdowns as well, but when services were suspended those people had nowhere else to go. The same for those with substance abuse problems.

It's called unintended consequences, and it's something the media doesn't like to talk about much because it complicates the narrative (sort of like Cuomo manipulating the figures from New York State elder care facilities). Us versus them is so much easier to package. Easy to forget there was a point in the first cycle of lockdowns where San Francisco's OD death toll was higher than their COVID mortality numbers.

Again, I'm looking past the current situation. The things I'm talking about existed before COVID, but were made much worse by COVID and the steps taken (rightly or wrongly...doesn't matter now) to contain it. If they're going to cycle into lockdown again, those crisis services are things that must be considered. And that includes the burnout level of the people providing them (which I can testify from my own organization is quite high). I don't think we can ignore those people, those situations, and still claim to be virtuous. Not if we want to be able to look at ourselves in the collective mirror, at least.

[pahonu]

29 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

The things I'm talking about existed before COVID, but were made much worse by COVID and the steps taken (rightly or wrongly...doesn't matter now) to contain it. If they're going to cycle into lockdown again, those crisis services are things that must be considered. And that includes the burnout level of the people providing them (which I can testify from my own organization is quite high). I don't think we can ignore those people, those situations, and still claim to be virtuous. Not if we want to be able to look at ourselves in the collective mirror, at least.

I absolutely agree that those most vulnerable cannot be ignored if anything like another lockdown occurs.  The existence of the vaccine gives me hope that it will not have to happen again.  I also don’t think the most vulnerable were entirely neglected.  

I can’t speak to the health care field you work in, but in education, the district I work in and many others including my wife’s, put together all kinds of new plans to continue to provide for our students.  Free meals for impoverished students continued to be provided though in different ways.  Personnel delivered and set up WiFi hotspots, Chromebooks, and provided tech support to assist families.  Our counselors and psychologists also provided services via Zoom and other platforms.  Of course none of this is as effective as in person instruction but it’s also not neglect.  It’s having to adjust to the worst global pandemic in over a century.

I’m also not convinced that those supportive of possible lockdowns in the future are all virtue signaling.  I think part of people’s ideas regarding pandemic mitigation are based on their vulnerabilities or those of their loved ones.  I believe how much risk one perceives has to play a role in judging possible responses.  Those perceptions range from people who still wrongly believe this is somehow a con and are going about their lives with almost no changes whatsoever, to individuals essentially paralyzed with fear, perhaps needlessly, who remain home bound by choice.   
 

The first lockdown was a response to an unknown quantity.  That is no longer true with the vaccines and improved treatments.  Again, my hope is that another will not be needed as the effects could be just as devastating in the long run.

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, pahonu said:

(snipped) I also don’t think the most vulnerable were entirely neglected.  (snipped)

I can’t speak to the health care field you work in, but in education, the district I work in and many others including my wife’s, put together all kinds of new plans to continue to provide for our students.  Free meals for impoverished students continued to be provided though in different ways.  Personnel delivered and set up WiFi hotspots, Chromebooks, and provided tech support to assist families.  Our counselors and psychologists also provided services via Zoom and other platforms.  Of course none of this is as effective as in person instruction but it’s also not neglect.  It’s having to adjust to the worst global pandemic in over a century.

(snipped)

The first lockdown was a response to an unknown quantity.  That is no longer true with the vaccines and improved treatments.  Again, my hope is that another will not be needed as the effects could be just as devastating in the long run.

Yes, a lot of work was done to attempt new and creative ways to address needs.  Some of those new and creative ways will probably continue to be with us and will even allow improved continuity in some cases.  School districts (and otehr organizations) provided meals that could be picked up (delivered in some cases) by families.

However, Robbie is correct that some help was more difficult to access, or even unavailable.  Many in-person 12-step type meetings were suspended, and although some efforts were made to move those to online meetings (with all good intent), some people were just unable to make those work.  The healthcare workers who were praised as heroes have been exhausted physically and mentally by the slog.  Although their organizations offer counseling for those who are feeling the strain, the person must then find the time to work in a counseling visit (or Zoom) while at the same time being asked to work more.  Some were furloughed last spring in localities that weren't hit with an influx of inpatients, and where elective surgeries were cancelled.  Those people in some cases, had to use up all of their vacation time in order to keep collecting a full paycheck.  Closed daycare centers made it difficult for many parents to work.

Agree 100% with pahonu that the response to an unknown quantity was necessary, but the same response shouldn't be needed now with effective vaccines available.  Hopefully with the current situation, more people will start to take advantage of vaccine availability and will also be more willing to socially distance as well as masking when in crowded areas.  Regardless of anything else, a mask helps to reduce the spread of the wearer's exhaled respiratory particles.

[jpaul1]

surges which are at the lockdowns origins are caused by or the lack of vaccine, or the lack of knowledge. right now in France, regions locked down are only regions with lot of people refusing the vaccine

regarding the mentally ill. yeah it has probably nasty effects. but it's like that there's no choice. it's like for the cancer patients waiting for an operation, and see their operation postponed. it's like that. if you open the valves during a surge, you'll get people dying on sidewalks. and we saw a glimpse of that in California once. where ambulances were ordered to choose their patients

this being said i fully agree that if it's possible, mentally ill patients should be helped as much as the situation allows it. And eventually regarding the pathology be completely exempted of lockdown. if the situation asks it

what i'm trying to say it's that that virus should be considered like a flooding, or a wild fire. it's something against sometimes you have no other choice that to abdicate. it shouldn't be seen as an injustice from the authorities, but like a fatality. There's no choice point. Then the mentally ill should be helped the most possible, but there's the maximum, and there's the impossible

the vaccine could unlock the situation, but well

one last thing here authorities think there will be at least one more big surge in the upcoming months. beside actual one. but it was predictable. if the people aren't vaccinated in the same time, there will be mutations, and there will be surges

edit:

Edited August 25, 2021 by jpaul1