Thoughts on Covid 19

[pahonu]

I got my Pfizer booster two weeks ago and had nothing more than a sore arm.  

[Ferrariman]

I will be eligible for a booster shot in December and will definitely get it.  

I was a bit skeptical about starting this topic but I now have to say I'm very happy that I did.  It's good to see so many getting vaccinated and I'd like to think that the positive information that members have posted here has helped many make their decision.  

[Christine]

I`ll get my third shot in November and, as you say it, Ferariman, I will also definitely take it.

Even though many people still deny that Covid exists, the number of vaccinated people is increasing and that is good.
In Germany, the numbers of diseases are just rising again, which in my opinion has three causes:
1. it is autumn, so virus time.
2. many people are just returning from vacation, where they may not have paid as much attention to distance and the obligation to wear a mask.
3. events are allowed again. My younger daughter and son-in-law were at an event in Cologne last Saturday with 12,000 visitors. 
On the positive side, even though there are more people with the disease, fewer have to be ventilated in intensive care units and the number of deaths is also low. This shows me that vaccination works well, no matter what any deniers say.

[Ferrariman]

25 minutes ago, Christine said:

3. events are allowed again. My younger daughter and son-in-law were at an event in Cologne last Saturday with 12,000 visitors. 

I’’d put my money on this one.  Here in Toronto, even though our numbers are very good, I can’t see any reason (except maybe greed) to have stadiums and arenas opened 100% for sporting events.  20 or 30 thousand unmasked, screaming fans spells nothing but trouble to me. 

[Christine]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Ferrariman:

I’’d put my money on this one.  Here in Toronto, even though our numbers are very good, I can’t see any reason (except maybe greed) to have stadiums and arenas opened 100% for sporting events.  20 or 30 thousand unmasked, screaming fans spells nothing but trouble to me. 

My daughter and son-in-law were at some comedy show. They said you could only get into the arena if you were vaccinated or recovered or presented a test. The Lanxess Arena in Cologne is very big and usually more people fit in there. Still, my daughter said it was a very strange feeling to be unmasked among so many people.
The point is, of course, that all the organizers want to get going again now. The losses were very high and some people didn't make it through Corona either. 
Besides, everyone is now crying out for a gradual return to normality. I heard, for example, that masks will no longer have to be worn in class at our schools starting in November.
We'll see what develops from this.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

8 minutes ago, Christine said:

My daughter and son-in-law were at some comedy show. They said you could only get into the arena if you were vaccinated or recovered or presented a test. The Lanxess Arena in Cologne is very big and usually more people fit in there. Still, my daughter said it was a very strange feeling to be unmasked among so many people.
The point is, of course, that all the organizers want to get going again now. The losses were very high and some people didn't make it through Corona either. 
Besides, everyone is now crying out for a gradual return to normality. I heard, for example, that masks will no longer have to be worn in class at our schools starting in November.
We'll see what develops from this.

Normal is nice for sure, but I still see it as wait-and-see; at the hotel I work at, masks are worn intermittently (I just keep mine on, since there are still many places that prefer a mask, and I don't really mind). Inside the lobby of the hotel, most employees are wearing masks, but then when entering certain establishments within the hotel (including the kitchens and clubs I work in), it's kind of a free-for-all. I know that the downstairs Pub doesn't often have anyone wearing masks, but at least the woman server I have a crush on wears hers (I think she looks pretty cute in her Marriott-matching black mask; then again, she's been serving there for 9 years and worked--minus a 10 week layoff--through the heavy COVID, so she knows how to handle it).

The thing with school, at least how I feel, is that since the immune system of kids is still in development, that the rate of sickness (depending on school size) with or without COVID is always something to consider. I mean, back in the 1980s & '90s I caught most of whatever was floating around the student body (even lice). I'm not sure about maskless schools yet, I'd at least like to see the year play out before a clear-cut decision is made (I hope I'm not coming of a strict Schoolmaster in saying this!).

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Normal is nice for sure, but I still see it as wait-and-see; at the hotel I work at, masks are worn intermittently (I just keep mine on, since there are still many places that prefer a mask, and I don't really mind). Inside the lobby of the hotel, most employees are wearing masks, but then when entering certain establishments within the hotel (including the kitchens and clubs I work in), it's kind of a free-for-all. I know that the downstairs Pub doesn't often have anyone wearing masks, but at least the woman server I have a crush on wears hers (I think she looks pretty cute in her Marriott-matching black mask; then again, she's been serving there for 9 years and worked--minus a 10 week layoff--through the heavy COVID, so she knows how to handle it).

The thing with school, at least how I feel, is that since the immune system of kids is still in development, that the rate of sickness (depending on school size) with or without COVID is always something to consider. I mean, back in the 1980s & '90s I caught most of whatever was floating around the student body (even lice). I'm not sure about maskless schools yet, I'd at least like to see the year play out before a clear-cut decision is made (I hope I'm not coming of a strict Schoolmaster in saying this!).

I'd also like to point out that, although I subscribe to normal, I miss many of its issues.

[Ferrariman]

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

 I know that the downstairs Pub doesn't often have anyone wearing masks, but at least the woman server I have a crush on wears hers (I think she looks pretty cute in her Marriott-matching black mask

Go for it man!  Let us know how it all shakes out! 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

22 minutes ago, Ferrariman said:

Go for it man!  Let us know how it all shakes out! 

Yeah, it's definitely been a work in progress: the best way to explain it is that there's the both of us, then there's the world, but in-between there's this "thing" we call our own and keep to yourselves; our "things" are very similar, and every time I talk to her I feel it, and it's like we're sharing something unspoken (we also seem to share a similar quiet flair). We're not completely alike or anything like that, but I think there's something familiar for sure. I dig her all business, no-nonsense style, including a self-assured manner. Nice to look at too, with her thin long nose (I like those kind of noses) and Bambi eyes (sometimes she wears glasses; she says she wears them when she's tired, and that helps keep her awake. I find that completely awesome actually). He he, but when she's with her one co-worker, she gets all girly ("The dynamic duo" right there). I don't know, she's a serious-minded gal that I find fun, which it figures that I'd like such a juxtaposition, considering how my mind works. But yeah, I'll certainly give updates!

Edited October 27, 2021 by Eillio Martin Imbasciati
needed re-wording

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

On 10/27/2021 at 5:19 PM, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Yeah, it's definitely been a work in progress: the best way to explain it is that there's the both of us, then there's the world, but in-between there's this "thing" we call our own and keep to yourselves; our "things" are very similar, and every time I talk to her I feel it, and it's like we're sharing something unspoken (we also seem to share a similar quiet flair). We're not completely alike or anything like that, but I think there's something familiar for sure. I dig her all business, no-nonsense style, including a self-assured manner. Nice to look at too, with her thin long nose (I like those kind of noses) and Bambi eyes (sometimes she wears glasses; she says she wears them when she's tired, and that helps keep her awake. I find that completely awesome actually). He he, but when she's with her one co-worker, she gets all girly ("The dynamic duo" right there). I don't know, she's a serious-minded gal that I find fun, which it figures that I'd like such a juxtaposition, considering how my mind works. But yeah, I'll certainly give updates!

Actually, a different kind of update: it's been a wild week at the Hotel Ponderosa for sure! When I posted here in Wednesday, it was supposed to be my day off, but NO ONE showed up at work except the supervisor (first time that's happened; as Darth Vader once said, The Circle is Complete), so I volunteered to come in at 10 PM (Jeff the supervisor brought in a couple of Whopper Jr.'s for me; turns out, I'm a cheap date!). My work schedule has been taken out back and shot (I think it was Lombard's men that did the work there) because I switched with a guy (he needed the day off) to have today off last week (no chance of running into Colleen though, she currently has Wednesdays & Thursdays off like me--well, usually!--, although she prefers Monday & Tuesday off). Heck, I might be going in tonight; we have a work chat on our phones (which is how I learned about the Wednesday fiasco), so if my man Chris (the guy's getting kind of spotty with his appearances; he's also the day-switch guy) doesn't show, then it's back to MVP Mode for me. I find this all very humorous, and have been laughing for days about the whole thing.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

20 hours ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Actually, a different kind of update: it's been a wild week at the Hotel Ponderosa for sure! When I posted here in Wednesday, it was supposed to be my day off, but NO ONE showed up at work except the supervisor (first time that's happened; as Darth Vader once said, The Circle is Complete), so I volunteered to come in at 10 PM (Jeff the supervisor brought in a couple of Whopper Jr.'s for me; turns out, I'm a cheap date!). My work schedule has been taken out back and shot (I think it was Lombard's men that did the work there) because I switched with a guy (he needed the day off) to have today off last week (no chance of running into Colleen though, she currently has Wednesdays & Thursdays off like me--well, usually!--, although she prefers Monday & Tuesday off). Heck, I might be going in tonight; we have a work chat on our phones (which is how I learned about the Wednesday fiasco), so if my man Chris (the guy's getting kind of spotty with his appearances; he's also the day-switch guy) doesn't show, then it's back to MVP Mode for me. I find this all very humorous, and have been laughing for days about the whole thing.

More update: that Chris guy is leaving, going further north (Ohio), where the weather is cold, the drinks are colder, and he knows the name of a player (his brother). Chris was a little tough to handle (Colleen actually told him off earlier this month when he chaffed at my instructions on how to clean The Pub: she said to him, referring to me-"You should listen to him, he's worked here longer than you"-); so from that, Chris wasn't a fan of neither Colleen nor myself (I was already into the gal, but that statement definitely helped; sorry for Chris though, she kind of hit him with a bus), but I wish Chris the best, and I said so myself this morning to him on the phone (his response was "Huh"; he he). 

[miamijimf]

Thought U'all would be interested in the latest happening in the US.  Several city governments, like NYC have gotten maybe too serious about vaccine mandates.  They have said to police and the Fire Dept people, who have put their lives at risk during the pandemic that unless they get vaccinated they will be fired.  Many of them have gotten the virus and recovered, or have medical problems that would make the virus dangerous to them but that doesn't excuse them from the mandate according to the city goverments.  Some just object to being forced to take substances into their bodies.  (It might be difficult for someone who is not an American to understand how important personal freedom of choice is to a lot of folks here).  As a result, a lot of these important people have staged walkouts, resigned, or threatened to refuse to come to work.  This may cause serious problems in certain big cities.

[pahonu]

18 minutes ago, miamijimf said:

Thought U'all would be interested in the latest happening in the US.  Several city governments, like NYC have gotten maybe too serious about vaccine mandates.  They have said to police and the Fire Dept people, who have put their lives at risk during the pandemic that unless they get vaccinated they will be fired.  Many of them have gotten the virus and recovered, or have medical problems that would make the virus dangerous to them but that doesn't excuse them from the mandate according to the city goverments.  Some just object to being forced to take substances into their bodies.  (It might be difficult for someone who is not an American to understand how important personal freedom of choice is to a lot of folks here).  As a result, a lot of these important people have staged walkouts, resigned, or threatened to refuse to come to work.  This may cause serious problems in certain big cities.

I’ve been following the same story from the LA area where I am.  The LA County Sheriff has had a significant number of deputies decline and they are approaching a deadline.  Courts across the country have largely turned away challenges to vaccination requirements and Supreme Court case law solidly supports local authorities right to protect public health in their requirement of vaccination.  Research Jacobsen vs. Massachusetts and subsequent rulings based on it over the last century.  

The underlying issue here is personal freedom, which is highly valued in the US as miamijim explained, versus the overall public welfare.  The most recent data shows that previous illness is less effective than vaccination in terms of antibody resistance.  The argument that it is a personal choice is not at issue.  Many have chosen not to vaccinate, including a teacher at my high school. The argument is that if one chooses not be vaccinated, should they be able to put their coworkers, and in my case students, at higher risk for exposure by continuing to work closely with them?  Again, a century of case law has decided in favor of the public good over individual choice.

[Robbie C.]

Yes, but you still see very few mandates on the whole that impact teachers, while the mandates often target categories of workers who are not allowed to strike by the terms of their contracts (or that can have their organizations' revenue streams held hostage by the Feds). And those same organizations often do not require vaccination for patients or residents (the weekly testing provisions still apply). 

[pahonu]

17 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Yes, but you still see very few mandates on the whole that impact teachers, while the mandates often target categories of workers who are not allowed to strike by the terms of their contracts (or that can have their organizations' revenue streams held hostage by the Feds). And those same organizations often do not require vaccination for patients or residents (the weekly testing provisions still apply). 

The teacher in my district was put on administrative leave without pay two weeks ago.  It has impacted us all because one of the two former teachers hired as permanent subs for our campus this year had to take over his class.  We have a pretty severe sub shortage just as many sectors have seen labor shortages.  We’re all having to cover each other for absences and give up our prep time.  
 

I’ve heard more than a few staff are not pleased by his decision and see at as selfish.  He certainly has the right to not vaccinate but it does feel a little disingenuous to praise us as colleagues as I explain below and then do something that makes us all have to cover for his absence.
 

He sent an email to the faculty praising our work and professionalism, then strangely cited his philosophical choice as being based on the ideas of the Czech author and political leader Vaclav Havel’s The Power of the Powerless.  I’ve read Havel’s essay and it is an analysis of the Communist regime’s creation of dissidents by the nature of their authoritarianism.
 

I emailed him in response, asking how he justified the comparison of public safety rules developed by democratically elected leaders (including those elected by his colleagues) to the authoritarian regimes of the former Eastern Bloc. I’ve had no reply.

[Robbie C.]

I'm not talking exclusively about your teacher colleague, but about the wider mandate situation. And everyone has labor shortages. Healthcare in particular is being chewed up by it as we speak. Yet instead of actually trying to address that situation we see mandates and ineffective shaming campaigns.

I'm not anti-vaccine. As I've mentioned before I got Moderna as soon as it was available in our area. However, I do have issues with the lack of balance and equality in mandates, as well as a total lack of accountability on the part of those passing said mandates. I also remain deeply concerned about the downstream impacts of lockdowns and mandates. Data continues to show spiking rates of mental health issues in all age groups, yet no one seems especially concerned about that. Add in "shrinkflation" and the accelerating concentration of wealth in this country and you have some serious longer-term issues.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

I'm not talking exclusively about your teacher colleague, but about the wider mandate situation. And everyone has labor shortages. Healthcare in particular is being chewed up by it as we speak. Yet instead of actually trying to address that situation we see mandates and ineffective shaming campaigns.

I'm not anti-vaccine. As I've mentioned before I got Moderna as soon as it was available in our area. However, I do have issues with the lack of balance and equality in mandates, as well as a total lack of accountability on the part of those passing said mandates. I also remain deeply concerned about the downstream impacts of lockdowns and mandates. Data continues to show spiking rates of mental health issues in all age groups, yet no one seems especially concerned about that. Add in "shrinkflation" and the accelerating concentration of wealth in this country and you have some serious longer-term issues.

Lots to unpack there.  I was just giving an example from my experience in regards to mandates and public education in my state.  I would add however that many of the school and district shutdowns that happened in many states in the fall didn’t occur here.  I believe the strong health restrictions involving masking, testing, and quarantining played a significant role.

Perhaps the “shaming campaign” you refer to, and I’m not convinced it’s necessarily a campaign of shaming, will lead to higher rates of vaccination.  The rate in my community has risen steadily among adults and teens, and that has been largely through multiple vaccine clinics and positive media.  The only shaming I have witnessed has come from within the community as individuals have recognized that getting vaccinated is more than just a personal decision.  It also effects your community and the community has reacted to that.  In other words, it’s not a government campaign as much as a community response, at least here.

Something that has been weighing on me more recently is the argument many have made that covid doesn’t effect children the same way as adults.  While that may be true physiologically, it is not so socially at all, as I have had more than a few students lose a parent to covid and one girl lose both parents last Christmas.  Saying covid doesn’t effect them as much as adults completely ignores this fact.

[jpaul1]

10 hours ago, miamijimf said:

It might be difficult for someone who is not an American to understand how important personal freedom of choice is to a lot of folks here

jim on which basis do you state freedom is at higher consideration in America, than in Europe. I'm sorry but this is an argument i often came across, and that i don't get. some americans seem to think only americans are able to understand freedom. Do you seriously think in Europe we don't cherish freedom with the same vigor. it seems some americans forgot americans are europeans

Edited November 1, 2021 by jpaul1

[Ferrariman]

13 hours ago, pahonu said:

  The underlying issue here is personal freedom, which is highly valued in the US as miamijim explained, versus the overall public welfare.  The most recent data shows that previous illness is less effective than vaccination in terms of antibody resistance.  The argument that it is a personal choice is not at issue.  Many have chosen not to vaccinate, including a teacher at my high school. The argument is that if one chooses not be vaccinated, should they be able to put their coworkers, and in my case students, at higher risk for exposure by continuing to work closely with them?  Again, a century of case law has decided in favor of the public good over individual choice.

Personal freedom is just fine if you want to drive without a seatbelt, overdose on drugs or commit suicide.  The point being your not taking anybody with you.  But I think (and it seems that the courts agree) that personal freedom ends when it affects someone else. 

I think the main reason that many are refusing to get vaccinated is just human nature.  Given a choice,  people will most   likely do the right thing. Tell them the "have to" and they get their back up.  I agree with mandates but it's almost a "damned if you do, damned if you don't"  situation.

I've said it before, if you don't want to get vaccinated, then sequester yourself from the public.

[IA-SteveB]

I just got my booster last Thursday and was sick for about 8 hours.  I watched Miami Vice in bed wearing a winter coat.  :(

85% of people who are hospitalized for covid these days were not vaccinated.  I know people have their reasons and I won't condemn people for that.  That said, this is taking beds away from people who have other critical conditions that need care but can't get placed in a hospital that has the proper level of care for their needs.  This can be a life threatening thing that could be avoided had more people just gotten the vaccine.  Trust the science. It is no wonder that emergency departments are stressed since they have to keep seriously sick, non-covid patients in ED until they can be transferred to an inpatient bed, which is likely unavailable.  It's a big problem right now.

I agree with what Ferrariman said above.  People like to have choices and don't like being told what to do.

Edited November 1, 2021 by IA-SteveB

[vicegirl85]

3 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

I've said it before, if you don't want to get vaccinated, then sequester yourself from the public.

Honestlly, that's the way I feel, too.  Being skeptical, wanting to wait for a longer history, someone else telling me what to do... I understand that.  But for a disease spread by the respiratory route, I honestly believe medical workers and first responders should be obligated to get vaccinated in the absence of a documented medical contraindication.  This is for their own protection as well as the protection of the community.  And if they don't want to be vaccinated because of whatever, they should leave their jobs.

OTOH I do have worries about what will happen if large numbers of police officers, EMS, firefighters, nurses, etc. leave their jobs/ get fired.  We don't have surplus numbers of those people.  But I still don't believe they should be allowed to circulate freely among the population, being exposed and exposing others.  And as far as medical workers like nurses go--I have seen statements from patients that they don't want to be put at risk by contact with unvaccinated staff.  

[Ferrariman]

Having been a firefighter for 29 years I can't understand not wanting the protection of a proven vaccine.  With EMS being a huge part of our job, the number of people you help and the various situations you encounter makes you a prime candidate for exposure to covid and God knows what else (AIDS, Hep B or C, to name a few)  

As vicegirl85 mentioned. A shortage of Police, Fire and EMS is a dangerous thing.  It's bad enough that these services usually run understaffed on a good day.  Members quitting or getting fired only adds to the problem.

[Augusta]

Wow, this thread is approaching "Page 27".  That's a long spool of thread!  
Let me warn you first that I have lost my optimism and good hopes, so what I'm about to post here is grim and nearing apocalyptic points of view.  I'm not ranting...  I'm just depressed by everything that continues to "repeat" around us.

Science is a good tool, but only a tool.  Like the internet itself, science itself cannot produce or even promise a beautiful evolution to your life.  To OUR lives.  A tool needs application.  Needs the firm and steady kindness of persons and people to bend and shape the tool for its intended purpose, and execute, and share with brethren.  
In the past when a calamity struck (earthquake in a city, plague across five continents), it took "X" years to overcome and recover because the limits of commerce and trade and technology unavoidably DRAGGED the process by which we can overcome that enemy.  

Covid is showing us we have a new and different obstacle dragging the process now, and the obstacle is people.  
I've read the various posts on this thread, and the people posting here are fair, concerned, human-minded people.  But look around you at the people outside your apartment, your town, your province----they DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHARE, or they don't WANT to share,... not in the ways where sharing really counts.  Someone is killed by a car at the corner, and instantly they pile up candles and teddy bears by the lampost to feel we "care".  Some hears a village of 100 poor children in Kuwait has no shoes, and instantly a 3000 Nike horde of donated shoes are shipped, so we can "feel we care".  
Medical technology has shown itself super-fast and capable of being the tool that can make this covid calamity go away.  The WHO has already pointed out that this infection could be overcome within a simple year, and reduced from pandemic-status to simple outbreaks-status, if everyone (every country) reached across and truly helped supply one another.  Truly, (I mean TRULY) shared.  When it's time for an new iphone-17, practically no amount of money is too much to throw at the needs,... but when it's the 3rd world country of dimmer-complexion, water and education stimied countries whose time for assistance has come, only a thimble-full of help and sharing is thrown down to them, with the illusion that "we have to supply ourselves first, than we'll help them afterward"... (and the "supply first" becomes a compulsive greedy "supply constant" with no end, so there never comes the "afterward".  Human beings are only supposed to be that blatantly selfish and greedy in $8.00 Hollywood movies, not in our real world.  I am ashamed that this is who we are... Globally.  I haven't shaken this fed-up ashamed feeling since the middle of last year.  

Covid is not a strong adversary.  It is weak and easy to starve down, even without a "vaccine".  It is a virus driven directly by OUR behavior---it needs us to pick it up, and transport it and pass it to others.  It is the reason why we were starving it toward full control in some places in 2020 even without a single vaccine---it is the reason why it's re-'surging' once again even in places that bragged of 70% vaccination.  Our poorly-disciplined, self-interested, unable-to-retain-important-prioritized-information behavior will just carry covid around the globe in repeating circles, until it has gradually had the chance to snag 80% of the population at the right times, and finally through some oncoming surprise variant, kills... (everyone?).  
I used to watch the WHO in their video briefings BEGGING for the wealthy countries to give to the poorer countries and not grab a third serving for themselves.  And a year later here the wealthy countries are, with hordes of boosters and shots ready for their own precious people,... and their own pampered  precious people are protesting in the streets DESIRING NOT to take the shot.  How ironic is that?  How ironic can our human existence be?

Haha, maybe covid's real purpose is to punish us into realizing that our "money" was always an impotent thing in the entire scheme of our Lives.  
"The people's behavior" is the factor that medical science can't effectively reign in, making this calamity drag into a THIRD year (a timespan that was unavoidable in the early centuries of calamities, but a timespan that is clearly NEEDLESSLY long in our 21st century).  And the people's behavior might just guarantee that the process of recovery won't be simply "dragged" this time----it will be completely stalled in an embarrassing circle for six years or more, so that there IS NO recovery.  It only takes the arrival of a perfected variant, to leave 7 billion people "out of time".  

[Ferrariman]

I can’t believe I actually read your whole post but, WELL SAID! 

[Christine]

Words like "I want to decide for myself what goes into my body", references to the Basic Law or, as I experienced the day before yesterday, to the dictatorship in the Third Reich (from a lady who must have been well over 80) are unfortunately not rare. The other day an elderly gentleman explained to me that we should all be prepared for the fact that from now on only children with disabilities will be born, because the vaccine penetrates into the genes and changes them.
I have often tried to explain to these people that this is all nonsense and have made them aware that they have a responsibility not only to themselves but also to society. 
At some point, I decided to stop getting upset about it, because we're not going to change the contrarians. I am only still of the opinion that someone who denies the disease should please bear all the costs incurred in case of illness.
I myself got my booster vaccination 12 days ago and tolerated it very well.