Thoughts on Covid 19

[pahonu]

8 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Two points: as I've said and demonstrated with figures I believe, the burials and cremations stats when looked at from 2015 are little changed in the UK. That's a statistical fact, OK? (So what were they doing with the extra bodies?)

Secondly I believe apocalypse was commenting on the success of the Swedish policy of no enforced masks and lockdowns, saying that their death rate was less than the UK and the USA per capita. I don't think that says the UK had the highest death rate than in most of  Europe. I was agreeing with the success of the Swedish policy.

I might add, seeing as you are so vociferous, you might have commented on the fact that the CDC has now said the  so called gold standard PCR test is useless at distinguishing covid from such as flu etc. Especially at amplifications of over 25 and it is always used at 40-45. As the figures from this test are propping up the so called "state of emergency" , it calls the entire edifice of it into disrepute. I don't intend arguing continuously about this with any of you. I think there's adequate evidence of what I say that anyone can access. If you choose not to, then that's your affair.

My point was that Sweden did see a rise in per capita death rate as a result of the pandemic, quite particularly amongst the elderly.  It’s rate was worse than all of its Scandinavian neighbors, which does not seem like success to me, or to many of Sweden’s citizens who are now questioning this.  

You then agreed with Apocalypse’s claim that the UK’s response was worse than Sweden’s “success”, but claimed earlier that the rate hadn’t risen in the UK.  How can that be?  Sweden’s rate rose, the UK’s is worse, but didn’t rise.  It’s illogical.

If you no longer wish to debate these issues as you stated, that’s fine with me.  I have no problem continuing with this thread, but saying you don’t want to keep arguing after making an argument won’t end the discussion.  If you want to respond, I will as well.  If you don’t want to then I’ll have nothing to respond to.

Also, I’ve made no comment on the PCR test, let alone be vociferous about it?  Perhaps you debated someone else about this?  You made this mistake in another thread, attributing several comments to me that were made by another member.

[jpaul1]

there are problems generated by the virus. existing, and future. but what i don't get it's when some people make a big deal of it. this is an emergency public heath problem. there's no choice. whatever the problem is it has to be dealt

If you want to have a chance to put back the world onto the normality path. get the f.. vaccine. get it before the virus mutates

[pahonu]

9 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I don't think you can compare this to any severe economic downturn aside from the Great Depression, though. And it pretty much took World War II to pull the US out of that one. Having also worked service sector, I'm very aware of the poor pay there (and let's be honest...it's poor pay, not just fairly poor pay), as well as the casual disregard for those workers evidenced by both major political parties.

But as I said, it's much easier to trot out numbers and "us versus them" language (no matter who the us or them happen to be).

The Panic of 1893 is largely forgotten four-year financial depression, but in some states unemployment surpassed the rates reached in the Great Depression.   Hundreds of banks failed, thousands of businesses and farms as well.  The long term impact, however was a major realignment of the two US political parties that persisted until the New Deal, and some argue until the Civil Rights Era.

The Great Recession of 08/9 also had political impacts with the anger over bailouts giving voice to Tea Party candidates and on the left, candidates like Bernie Sanders.  The biggest impact though was likely the further rise of more recently developed economies that weren’t impacted nearly as much as the older developed economies.  China surpassed Japan as the second largest GDP as a result.

These details are not really my main point though. I think even lesser recessions can be “disrupters” as many say.  The scale of the downturn likely effects the scope of change.  I totally agree that large parts of the service industry have horrible pay.  

I was listening to a restauranteur being interviewed recently and he felt the industry will definitely see increased costs associated with payroll, particularly the back of house staff.  He also felt it was really for the ultimate good, though the cost of dining will rise for consumers.  Perhaps the two political parties might begin listening to these workers as a result?  I don’t exactly hold out much hope though.   

[Christine]

The virus will mutate in any case, because that is unfortunately the type of virus, but the vaccinations help to cope better with it. All the other problems we have to tackle afterwards, and even if certainly nothing will be like before, we will somehow and sometime manage to live in a normal world again.

[Robbie C.]

ANY virus mutates. It's what they do. And I think the whole mindset of "the future will take care of itself" is akin to vaccine denial or embracing the latest computer model of virus spread as gospel. It's undeniably easier to think that way, though. It's also more or less how the human mind has been conditioned to react over the years.

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

"the future will take care of itself"

that sentence has an anarchist sonority into my head. acting before thinking, and saying to yourself everything will be fine is typical revolutionary behavior. mess 100% guaranteed on arrival

[Ferrariman]

 Had a discussion with my neighbors the other day. Good people, have known them for years. They are not vaccinated and have no intention of getting vaccinated. They also have 3 daughters in their 30's and 40's. None of them are vaccinated and 1 of them is even a nurse!  Their husbands aren't vaccinated either.   The wife was getting pretty heated during our conversation. When we asked why not we get the usual "I'm confused"  BS excuse. We tell them, if you're unsure talk to your doctor or pharmacist but no. Instead she gets all her misguided info from facebook! 

  She was throwing out every lame ass conspiracy there is.  The government put something in the air to cause this virus.  Now that we are vaccinated, my wife and I have radiation in our bodies.   Many doctors are saying not to take the vaccine.  When I asked "which doctors?" her answer was "the doctors"   When our discussion was over, my wife and I just sat there shaking our heads.

The topper, which pisses me off to no end, is the husband.  He is a barber. Where he works, everyone wears a mask but when someone asks him if he's vaccinated, he tells them yes!  To me, the fact that he lies about it tells me he's ashamed to admit the truth.  

The whole family gets together almost every weekend for dinner at the house.  Who knows who they've been in contact with during the week?!  Any one of them could bring it home and infect the whole family.  I just hope they don't find out the reality of this the hard way.

When it was all over I looked at my wife and said   "stupidity like that is the reason we are where we are!"  They won't take the vaccine but can't give you a good reason why.  

[vicegirl85]

Yes, I know people (including nurses) who are the same.  It's certainly discouraging that people won't listen to actual science but will listen to "doctors" who believe demons release sperm into people while sleeping...  

Regarding virus mutations:  yes, it is the nature of viruses to mutate.  The goal with vaccinating as many eligible people as possible was to reduce the pool of vulnerable people who would be more likely to become ill and symptomatic, therefore spreading to more people who also have no resistance.  If that was done quickly enough, the virus is more likely to fade away before a resistant mutation develops, because it would now lack that large reservoir of vulnerable people (hosts).

It seems we are now past the prospect of preventing multiple mutations, but the current approved vaccines have still shown excellent protection against serious illness for all known mutations. 

[Christine]

In my circle of acquaintances, until a few months ago, there was a man whom I have known for almost thirty years. He is a ward nurse at our hospital, so he is also someone who knows his stuff. In his second marriage, he became the father of three children and since they were born, he has railed against any kind of vaccination. He also denies that the vaccinations against Covid are effective and brings up all kinds of arguments where I could only shake my head. At some point I told him that it is better to end the contact, because I could no longer hear these partly - sorry - inane arguments.
When Lou described the conversation with the neighbors, I immediately had to think of this man.
However, I find it really bad that the neighbor lies to his customers in the store instead of standing by his decision. To me, it looks more like he is bowing to the family's decision, even though he disagrees. 
You can only stay away from such people, because, as Lou says, you never know where these unvaccinated people have been during the week and whether they have caught the virus there.

[Ferrariman]

7 hours ago, Christine said:

In my circle of acquaintances, until a few months ago, there was a man whom I have known for almost thirty years. He is a ward nurse at our hospital, so he is also someone who knows his stuff. In his second marriage, he became the father of three children and since they were born, he has railed against any kind of vaccination. He also denies that the vaccinations against Covid are effective and brings up all kinds of arguments where I could only shake my head. At some point I told him that it is better to end the contact, because I could no longer hear these partly - sorry - inane arguments.
When Lou described the conversation with the neighbors, I immediately had to think of this man.
However, I find it really bad that the neighbor lies to his customers in the store instead of standing by his decision. To me, it looks more like he is bowing to the family's decision, even though he disagrees. 
You can only stay away from such people, because, as Lou says, you never know where these unvaccinated people have been during the week and whether they have caught the virus there.

It's just sad. I don't know any other way to describe it.  Sorry to hear of you ending contact with your friend but I completely understand.  Doesn't sound like he "knows his stuff" after all, and a nurse no less?!   All you can do for people like this is pray. 

We will continue to remain friends with our neighbors.  (Our only contact is friendly conversations across the driveway and neither of us enters the other's home.)  Funny that the husband often says "Eventually we will have to take it"  They do like to travel so maybe down the road, that will be the kick in the ass they need. As I've said before, I think some people will decide to take it once they realize the limitations in their life.

In the meantime my wife and I have just decided that's it's a topic we refuse to discuss. If they happen to bring it up, we'll just nod our heads and change the subject.

 

[Ferrariman]

Maybe it’s just me being a bit paranoid but does anyone else see a problem with this “once in a lifetime” concert on Aug 21st in Central Park in New York City?

[jpaul1]

i prefer paranoid to accomplice of murder. i believe they're going to open it only to vaccinated. i think people in metropolitan areas have endured lot of stress with that thing. it will have them decompress a little bit. but if they don't ask for a vaccination proof, then yeah the variant delta is gonna do itself some good

here the situation in the carribean departments is catastrophic. hospitals are in tension never seen since very likely centuries. they have entered a hard confinement. and the variant has shown to target at any age there. even saw btw a shocking picture on imgur of a litlle baby hit by the covid. that virus is ruthless, and the ones that don't want to understand it are gonna learn it the hard way. the situation is really bad in southern metropolitan territory too. probably caused by the high level of contagiosity of the delta variant. the government has entered another phase of promotion of the vaccine. even if vaccinated i pay great attention to what i do. masked when in town even outside, and systematic hand washing at the shops entrance. did the shopping for 2 weeks so i get out only to go to the forest (which is a ritual to me). I put everything into a huge freezer i bought at the pandemic beginning. i meet only roe deers there. and they're well educated. each time they see me they flee away not to contaminate me

some people are starting to talk about a 3rd dose for the elderly too here. the government promised we are in for several months again

[Ferrariman]

On 8/12/2021 at 1:27 PM, jpaul1 said:

 i believe they're going to open it only to vaccinated.

I believe you are correct.  But my thoughts about this are how do you keep people from wandering in to an open park?

[Robbie C.]

Shock collars and cattle prods. Obviously.

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, Ferrariman said:

I believe you are correct.  But my thoughts about this are how do you keep people from wandering in to an open park?

Agree!  It seems there are some cases (like airlines) where people are asked to show proof of vaccination or negative COVID-19 test before being permitted to enter.  But unless all park entrances are patrolled and people are checking, I think it will work about as effectively as saying unvaccinated people should still wear masks.

In my  state, the governor and state board of education announced Tuesday that all schoolchildren and staff must wear masks while in school.  Naturally, a group of parents protesting this invasion of parental rights and liberty staged a protest 2 days later.

[jpaul1]

2 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

I believe you are correct.  But my thoughts about this are how do you keep people from wandering in to an open park?

i agree this is a bit worrying

1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

In my  state, the governor and state board of education announced Tuesday that all schoolchildren and staff must wear masks while in school.  Naturally, a group of parents protesting this invasion of parental rights and liberty staged a protest 2 days later.

yeah i didn't want to go poilitics, but did you see the situation in Florida. i won't develop. but it's madness there. google it, i won't go politics

[Ferrariman]

4 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

In my  state, the governor and state board of education announced Tuesday that all schoolchildren and staff must wear masks while in school.  Naturally, a group of parents protesting this invasion of parental rights and liberty staged a protest 2 days later.

Like someone on the news said : “People will protest about wearing masks until it’s their kid that gets sick”

[jpaul1]

i agree that once they'll be into the coffin, it'll be harder for them to protest

[Ferrariman]

That reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw today on TV.  "Mask it or Casket" 

[Robbie C.]

Ah, but let's not forget as well that vaccinated people can have the virus and be asymptomatic (making them spreaders in their own right). Frankly, I'm sick of the virtue-grasping on both sides.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Ah, but let's not forget as well that vaccinated people can have the virus and be asymptomatic (making them spreaders in their own right). Frankly, I'm sick of the virtue-grasping on both sides.

Absolutely correct about breakthrough cases spreading the virus.  Newer data has even shown that such spread is much higher than expected in those cases.  However, the data also indicates that vaccinated individuals are also much more likely to distance and continue using masks, indoor and out, regardless of recommendation.  The combination of vaccination and following other safety protocols means such individuals are a very small minority of those spreading the virus.

This has been confirmed over the last 4-6 weeks as data across the board indicates that this latest surge is almost entirely among the unvaccinated.  It also indicates that the highest rates of infection, hospitalization, and deaths are in communities with lower vaccination rates.

[jpaul1]

10 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Ah, but let's not forget as well that vaccinated people can have the virus and be asymptomatic (making them spreaders in their own right). Frankly, I'm sick of the virtue-grasping on both sides.

99.9% of the Guadeloupe and Martinique people who are in the emergency services are unvaccinated. in Martinique, absolutely 0 patient in ICU is vaccinated. all unvaccinated. both territories under heavy surge right now.

honestly i didn't vaccinate for glory. i vaccinated for one main reason. to avoid an endless mutation of the virus. which at some point regarding its level of contagiosity, and morbity can possibly turn into a nightmare for humanity. where after several mutations the vaccines had become uneffective. the delta variant isn't far from it

honestly yeah i consider myself more virtuous than the unvaccinated. certainly not more intelligent though. as i consider this a society problem. here are few arguments about it

- because of the unvaccinated, the virus has more chances of mutating, and to become more deadly. and to make the actual vaccines unefficient. unvaccinated are acting for a global public health nightmare. where vaccines won't be effective, and the virus variant deadly

because of the unvaccinated, hospitals ICU units are regularly under heavy surges. creating situations where people are literally left to die. and postponing cancer patients operations, among other things

an unvaccinated can spread the virus, so can a vaccinated. the only difference it's that the vaccinated will not contract a severe form of the virus in 99.9% of the cases. the unvaccinated puts at risk all the people he/she loves, including children. and in a deferred manner the vaccinated too, if the vaccines become uneffective

- now the vaccinated. he/she takes a risk with the vaccine (because there's always a very slight risk), but he acts for a global immunity. where the virus will not have an enough big pool to mutate. and the pandemic thus will end

he can spread the virus, certainly, but who cares if the vaccines are effective. he/she takes care of not only of his/her parents, but also his/her friends, as well as his/her coworkers, and even the unvaccinated. because yeah, if we're into endless arguments here, it's with the sole goal to save lives. We are vaccinated, and it's not us who will end in ICU

so yeah even if it may sound a bit presomptuous, i feel more virtuous somehow. because i took the risk of the vaccine, the unvaccinated didn't

Edited August 15, 2021 by jpaul1

[timm525]

13 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

That reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw today on TV.  "Mask it or Casket" 

We have a bill board in town by a local funeral home that has been in business here probably 35-40 years that has that saying on it with his funeral home. 

[Glades]

@pahonu , can you imagine a scenario that would lead to the termination of all Corona rules worldwide and permanently (i.e. for more than a few months and more than in a few countries)? What would be neccessary? I would be really interested to know.

By Corona rules I mean mandatory mask wearing, social distancing, testing for SARS-Cov2 in asymptomatic people, access to certain areas of the public only for vaccinated people or people with negative test results, business and school closures, banning of large events, border closures.

Are there any rules that you consider indispensable in the next few years?

Edited August 15, 2021 by Glades

[Ferrariman]

17 minutes ago, Glades said:

@panohu, can you imagine a scenario that would lead to the termination of all Corona rules worldwide and permanently (i.e. for more than a few months and more than in a few countries)? What would be neccessary?

By Corona rules I mean mandatory mask wearing, social distancing, testing for SARS-Cov2 in asymptomatic people, access to certain areas of the public only for vaccinated people or people with negative test results, business and school closures, banning of large events.

Are there any rules that you consider indispensable in the next few years?

The end of all Corona rules would bring about the true definition of herd immunity and God knows how many millions would have to die to achieve it!