Thoughts on Covid 19

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

I heard that some people may have problems with the second vaccination due to Biontec Pfizer. However, my patients (the oldest is 97) had at most some muscle pain in the arm. However, I believe that the Biontec Pfizer and Astra Zenica vaccines are based on different principles. BIontec contains a protein that helps prevent the virus from replicating, while Astra Zenica contains killed virus. If I'm not mistaken.

 

I believe Astra Zeneca is a viral vector vaccine using adenovirus, not a whole virus vaccine.  Johnson and Johnson is also.  Pfizer and Moderna use messenger RNA.  There is a fourth type as well, using proteins.

I had my second Pfizer dose about a week and a half ago,  it caused mild fatigue for about three days, and twice I had a low grade fever and chills in the first two days.  I had mild headaches for four days.  My first dose had only very mild arm soreness.

[Tom]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

I believe Astra Zeneca is a viral vector vaccine using adenovirus, not a whole virus vaccine.  Johnson and Johnson is also.  Pfizer and Moderna use messenger RNA.  There is a fourth type as well, using proteins.

I had my second Pfizer dose about a week and a half ago,  it caused mild fatigue for about three days, and twice I had a low grade fever and chills in the first two days.  I had mild headaches for four days.  My first dose had only very mild arm soreness.

good summary, thanks!

 

[pahonu]

18 minutes ago, airtommy said:

lol

I believe he’s saying the media isn’t going to hide anything.  They’re looking for news stories to report. That’s why they exist and how they prosper no matter the content, as opposed to institutions that may have something to gain from hiding information detrimental to them. 

[Robbie C.]

37 minutes ago, pahonu said:

I believe he’s saying the media isn’t going to hide anything.  They’re looking for news stories to report. That’s why they exist and how they prosper no matter the content, as opposed to institutions that may have something to gain from hiding information detrimental to them. 

Don't look at media in Chicago when you say that... And as media shifts more from pure reporting to advocacy of various stripes, you'll see more selective reporting.

But to Tom's question, Moderna had fairly strong side effects on the second dose...at least for me and many of my co-workers. But not everyone. It's all pretty variable.

[timm525]

A friend of mine that used to work in the media when she got out of college told me they had a saying, “If it bleeds, it leads.” And if you think about that, that’s about what the promote and sell. Sad but true. 

[Glades]

3 hours ago, Christine said:

However, I believe that the Biontec Pfizer and Astra Zenica vaccines are based on different principles. BIontec contains a protein that helps prevent the virus from replicating, while Astra Zenica contains killed virus. If I'm not mistaken.

Not really. Biontech/Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca are all genetic vaccines that transport the genetic information for part of the corona virus (the spike protein) into human cells.

Biontech/Pfizer and Moderna use mRNA packaged in nanoparticles for this purpose, so that the mRNA is not already eliminated by immunological defenses before it is uptaken into the human cell. After uptake of the mRNA into the cell, this cell then produces spike proteins according to the genetic information of the mRNA. The cell presents these proteins on its surface and the immune response of the vaccinee is induced.

AstraZeneca uses DNA. The DNA for the spike protein has been incorporated into the DNA of an adenovirus. This adenovirus has been genetically modified so that it is no longer capable of replication. The adenovirus enters the human cell. Then the DNA enters the cell nucleus. In the cell nucleus, the DNA is transcribed into mRNA. The mRNA is transported from the nucleus into the cytoplasm of the cell and then, as with the other vaccines, spike proteins are produced there according to the genetic information of the mRNA and presented on the cell surface of the human cell.

I personally think that this is a very deep intervention in each individual human being. Even deeper would be only the permanent alteration of the human DNA of the somatic cells or even the germ cells. As I am generally cautious about interventions I am cautious about this issue.

 

[pahonu]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Don't look at media in Chicago when you say that... And as media shifts more from pure reporting to advocacy of various stripes, you'll see more selective reporting.

But to Tom's question, Moderna had fairly strong side effects on the second dose...at least for me and many of my co-workers. But not everyone. It's all pretty variable.

I agree Modena seems to have stronger side effects.  It did with my wife as compared to myself and the Pfizer vaccine.  Of course there are other variables involved.

It’s no secret that news organizations have various perspectives when it involves analysis or opinion/editorial, but when a huge story breaks, no matter the topic, it’s pretty likely all the outlets are going to run with it for the potential ratings alone.  
 

A friend of mine who worked at the Wall Street Journal gave me an interesting tip quite a few years ago.  She told me to watch the lead story on any given day in all the major media possible, print and broadcast.  If something big enough happens, they’ll ALL lead with it.  They’d lose readers/viewers if they didn’t.  On other days, that doesn’t happen and journalistic decision making creeps in.  

I think too many people don’t understand the simple difference between straight news, analysis, and op/ed.  I also think that many people view the outlier story as somehow more credible even when all other media sources focus on a different one.  That doesn’t make sense.  It would be the same as multiple scientific studies all pointing to a particular conclusion but the one outlier being chosen as correct.  Sad but true.

[Vicefan7777]

I got my first Modena shot yesterday in my left arm.  Honestly it has surprised me how much my arm hurts today.  The soreness reminds me of when I was in the Air Force and got the painful Yellow Fever vaccine. Next shot is in 3 weeks. 

[Christine]

I promised you I would keep my ears open in case there was any news about vacation travel, Jim. The German government is going to talk tomorrow about whether in the summer or fall it might be possible for vaccinated people or people who have survived the disease and built up antibodies to go back to restaurants, concerts, theaters, stadiums, and go on vacations. I think that if Germans are allowed to travel, others will also be allowed to come here again.
As of June, there should also no longer be a priority list for vaccinations based on people's age. 
So, if this is all decided, it might be possible that your visit to Germany will be within reach, Jim.

 

[miamijimf]

On 4/25/2021 at 4:00 PM, Christine said:

I promised you I would keep my ears open in case there was any news about vacation travel, Jim. The German government is going to talk tomorrow about whether in the summer or fall it might be possible for vaccinated people or people who have survived the disease and built up antibodies to go back to restaurants, concerts, theaters, stadiums, and go on vacations. I think that if Germans are allowed to travel, others will also be allowed to come here again.
As of June, there should also no longer be a priority list for vaccinations based on people's age. 
So, if this is all decided, it might be possible that your visit to Germany will be within reach, Jim.

 

Thanks Christine, I'm interested in knowing what they decide.

[Christine]

I could imagine that it will be something like that at the end. There are lots of discussions in Germany because the vaccination opponents argue that there will be a two-class society because of this. Others say, these plans are not viable because they can´t vaccine all the people who want it because of too little vaccine.
I think that it´s right giving privileges to those who want to protect themselves and others through vaccination.

[wolfie1996]

On 3/31/2021 at 12:49 AM, Glades said:

Not really. Biontech/Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca are all genetic vaccines that transport the genetic information for part of the corona virus (the spike protein) into human cells.

Biontech/Pfizer and Moderna use mRNA packaged in nanoparticles for this purpose, so that the mRNA is not already eliminated by immunological defenses before it is uptaken into the human cell. After uptake of the mRNA into the cell, this cell then produces spike proteins according to the genetic information of the mRNA. The cell presents these proteins on its surface and the immune response of the vaccinee is induced.

AstraZeneca uses DNA. The DNA for the spike protein has been incorporated into the DNA of an adenovirus. This adenovirus has been genetically modified so that it is no longer capable of replication. The adenovirus enters the human cell. Then the DNA enters the cell nucleus. In the cell nucleus, the DNA is transcribed into mRNA. The mRNA is transported from the nucleus into the cytoplasm of the cell and then, as with the other vaccines, spike proteins are produced there according to the genetic information of the mRNA and presented on the cell surface of the human cell.

I personally think that this is a very deep intervention in each individual human being. Even deeper would be only the permanent alteration of the human DNA of the somatic cells or even the germ cells. As I am generally cautious about interventions I am cautious about this issue.

 

Glad to see everyone isn't totally vaccine crazy on here. You all do know it's still classed as a trial that you're taking part in and insurance companies won't provide cover for  any ill-effects (many of which have already been recorded)? It doesn't stop you getting this virus, it doesn't stop you passing it on and so far it hasn't returned anyone to "normal life". In fact I've seen graphs of infection following the same curve as the numbers vaccinated. Be catreful.

[Christine]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb wolfie1996:

Glad to see everyone isn't totally vaccine crazy on here. You all do know it's still classed as a trial that you're taking part in and insurance companies won't provide cover for  any ill-effects (many of which have already been recorded)? It doesn't stop you getting this virus, it doesn't stop you passing it on and so far it hasn't returned anyone to "normal life". In fact I've seen graphs of infection following the same curve as the numbers vaccinated. Be catreful.

In every major epidemic that has ever occurred on Earth, a vaccine was developed at some point and the first people to get it were, in effect, guinea pigs. Of course, we who have already been vaccinated and those who are waiting to get the vaccine are all aware of this. We also know that we can still get the viruses and pass them on, but that's why I think vaccination is important. The virus has to be able to reproduce and for that it has to attack the body. But if that is no longer possible because of the vaccination, we have a good chance of being able to return to a normal life. Anything is better than doing nothing.

 

[wolfie1996]

38 minutes ago, Christine said:

In every major epidemic that has ever occurred on Earth, a vaccine was developed at some point and the first people to get it were, in effect, guinea pigs. Of course, we who have already been vaccinated and those who are waiting to get the vaccine are all aware of this. We also know that we can still get the viruses and pass them on, but that's why I think vaccination is important. The virus has to be able to reproduce and for that it has to attack the body. But if that is no longer possible because of the vaccination, we have a good chance of being able to return to a normal life. Anything is better than doing nothing.

 

The thing is though Christine, it isn't a "vaccine" as such I don't think. That's one worrying thing about it (quite apart from its untested status and the reported side effects appearing). The other worrying thing is that, certainly in the UK, the timeline went like this: we're introducing a lockdown for a couple of weeks "to flatten the curve" and take the  strain off the NHS. Then it was we're continuing "emergency restrictions" until we get a vaccine.....15 months later we're knee deep in vaccines but it seems they aren't the answer  either!. They don't stop people getting it or passing it on so we're still being seriously controlled in our lives with the horizon (and the goalposts ) being moved further away  every day. The hospitals are half empty in fact and have never been under this purported strain. In fact  some NHS staff have never had it so easy. They certainly won't want to go back to "normal". I know our GPs don't. I  envy the USA  because at least their states can to some extent make their own laws. And the thing is, Christine, do you see those states, like Texas and Florida knee deep in corpses? No. Do  you see massive peaks in infections after the protests in the UK and elsewhere? No. Doesn't it make you wonder? I voted for that fat tyrant Boris Johnson because he was the best of a shambolic bunch but I thought we'd be rid of him after Brexit. I think he's on his way out though now, thank God.

[miamijimf]

4 hours ago, Christine said:

I could imagine that it will be something like that at the end. There are lots of discussions in Germany because the vaccination opponents argue that there will be a two-class society because of this. Others say, these plans are not viable because they can´t vaccine all the people who want it because of too little vaccine.
I think that it´s right giving privileges to those who want to protect themselves and others through vaccination.

I hear you Christine, those who volunteer to be vaccinated should be commended, they are taking a small risk with an "emergency approved shot."  But at the same time I have reservations about giving them special rights or coercing everyone to get the shot.  As an American I believe in freedom of choice (with few minor exceptions like wearing seat belts) and don't want to turn my life over to the dictates of the government (even if it seems like it is for the common good).  The US Constitution was written to protect the people against a tyrannical government not to give power to the government.  Fortunately the majority are getting vaccinated and no-shot people are few.  I have confidence that the world is slowly getting a handle on the virus and with most people immune from getting sick the danger will fade.  I suspect that yearly booster shots will be required for a long time.

[wolfie1996]

13 minutes ago, miamijimf said:

I hear you Christine, those who volunteer to be vaccinated should be commended, they are taking a small risk with an "emergency approved shot."  But at the same time I have reservations about giving them special rights or coercing everyone to get the shot.  As an American I believe in freedom of choice (with few minor exceptions like wearing seat belts) and don't want to turn my life over to the dictates of the government (even if it seems like it is for the common good).  The US Constitution was written to protect the people against a tyrannical government not to give power to the government.  Fortunately the majority are getting vaccinated and no-shot people are few.  I have confidence that the world is slowly getting a handle on the virus and with most people immune from getting sick the danger will fade.  I suspect that yearly booster shots will be required for a long time.

I agree, it should be a choice (and an informed one too, which I think it isn't here at present) and  even  indirect coercion to submit to a medical procedure against your will is against the Nuremberg  Code or something. So called vaccine passports qualify as indirect coercion in my book. They know they can't force you legally to have this done so are trying to do it another way. I think the UK government know they'll be challenged in court if they try this on. You're lucky being in the USA, at least states can make some of their own laws. We have nothing like that, not even a written constitution. The British government is pushing to see how far they can go, using a complicit media with fake stories to support them. For instance fake photos of "covid" victims in India. Last year we had fake photos of overcrowded hospitals. This is really dangerous for people who might not be aware of how they are being manipulated. The thing is, it's a traditional slippery slope. Agree to this against your will and what's next? Compulsory sterilisation? Compulsory euthanasia? Compulsory organ donation? All "for the common good" of course. It's well known that all sorts of questionable actions have been taken with THAT label attached.

[AndrewRemington]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:29 PM, Vicefan7777 said:

I got my first Modena shot yesterday in my left arm.  Honestly it has surprised me how much my arm hurts today.  The soreness reminds me of when I was in the Air Force and got the painful Yellow Fever vaccine. Next shot is in 3 weeks. 

I just got my first shot of the Pfizer vaccine this morning in my left arm. I felt just fine, but then right after I left a voice message to my wife saying my arm felt fine after the shot, it started to hurt like a b——! Ain’t that the way it goes?

I always seem to get soreness after shots or blood draws, but this hurts more.

I think it’s time for a booster shot of Black Jack! 

Edited April 27, 2021 by AndrewRemington

[vicegirl85]

3 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

The thing is though Christine, it isn't a "vaccine" as such I don't think. That's one worrying thing about it (quite apart from its untested status and the reported side effects appearing). 

Yes, it is a vaccine since it stimulates the person's immune system to destroy the invading virus's spike protein.

As far as being "untested", all of the currently approved vaccines were extensively tested in vaccine trials before being given emergency use approval.  "Emergency Use Approval" simply means that the longterm data is not yet available, but the trials did go through all of the normal processes, nothing was skipped or skimped in the testing.

The majority of side effects reported have been normal, expected reactions to getting a vaccine and having the immune system stimulated by the vaccine.  Injection site soreness, muscle aches, headaches, even some degree of fever, are expected effects of the immune system being stimulated.

People are encouraged to report side effects, and it is not difficult to do so.  Every person in the US who is vaccinated signs a consent, and they are given the opportunity to ask questions.  I don't know about other countries, but I can't imagine that people in the UK and Europe don't have to sign anything and are not given an opportunity to ask questions.  I personally encourage anyone who has concerns should discuss vaccination with their own health care provider before going to the vaccine site.  

The blood clotting publicized in a few patients who received the AZ and J&J vaccines was a very worrisome and dangerous complication, if truly caused by the vaccine.  Those vaccines were temporarily suspended in order to investigate the clotting, as well as analyze symptoms, evaluate and advise doctors of the best treatment if such a clotting disorder was suspected.  What was learned:  In the case of the J&J, each of the persons affected was female, between the ages of 18-49.  I thought I had read something about preexisting conditions, but was not able to quickly find anything about that in a search of several possible sites today.  Serious blood clotting disorders have also been recorded in patients infected with the virus that causes COVID-19, at a much higher incidence.  The AZ vaccine used in the UK and some parts of Europe was also associated in news reports with serious clotting, and its use was also paused for a time to study it further.  What was learned was that the incidence of clotting after the AZ vaccine was less than the incidence in the general population that had not been exposed to a COVID-19 vaccine.

The clotting problem is serious, but the risk of this kind of clotting is lower than the clotting risk associated with having the disease of COVID-19.  The pauses that were taken have allowed medical experts to find ways of treating the clotting that won't worsen it (the "default" classic anti-clotting drug, heparin, seems to worsen this particular type of clotting).  The pauses also provide a useful cautionary note of possible risk factors, i.e. if I was a female, age 18-49, and partiularly if I was on a hormonal treatment like birth control pills that already is associated with clotting risk, I would probably not choose to take the J&J vaccine, if I had an option.

Re:  vaccine requirements--in the US at least, the government will not require persons to be vaccinated against COVID-19.  This is partially due to its Emergency Use Authorization, but actually the government doesn't require vaccination with any vaccines for the average citizen.  However, a private company such as an airline or an employer, may require vaccination (or a medically-approved document of exemption) in order to use their service (airline) or receive a paycheck (employer).  The armed services do require certain vaccines, since the members may be deployed to parts of the world where some diseases are prevalent.  There will be freedom to not take the vaccine, but persons who choose not to be vaccinated may find that their ability to travel, attend events, etc., may be limited.

It's not known yet if booster shots will be needed.  Data is constantly being collected and we will know more by this time next year.     

As a healthcare professional, I was able to receive my first dose of the Moderna vaccine in December and the second one in January.  I was happy to be able to receive the vaccine and would do it again if needed.

[vicegirl85]

4 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

And the thing is, Christine, do you see those states, like Texas and Florida knee deep in corpses? No. 

Only a few months ago, the city of Houston, Texas had no empty ICU beds.  Refrigerated morgue trucks were sent to many areas where deaths were overwhelming the funeral business systems.  Many other states also had very high hospital censuses.  Florida has had one of the highest COVID-19 incidences in the US, likely related to the very limited restrictions.

Thankfully the US is now doing a better job of getting the vaccines out so that people can take them (initially the manufacturing and distribution caused problems with people being unable to get vaccinated as soon as they wanted to).  It's important that a large potion of the adult population is immunized as quickly as possible in order to reduce the chances of more resistant variants of the virus being introduced.

No doubt, there have been inconsistencies in the relation of virus cases to restrictions.  Some of this goes back to the disease being new and the optimal control measures being unknown.  Our knowledge is better now, but fighting the virus was also impaired by some of the political actions that were taken--some leaders didn't want to worry the population, some didn't want to inhibit business operations, some businesses were deeply affected as a side effect of reducing crowds.  It's been very hard for political leaders, who generally are not virologists, to keep up with the changing state of knowledge about this brand-new disease.

[Christine]

Am 27.4.2021 um 16:51 schrieb wolfie1996:

The thing is though Christine, it isn't a "vaccine" as such I don't think. That's one worrying thing about it (quite apart from its untested status and the reported side effects appearing). The other worrying thing is that, certainly in the UK, the timeline went like this: we're introducing a lockdown for a couple of weeks "to flatten the curve" and take the  strain off the NHS. Then it was we're continuing "emergency restrictions" until we get a vaccine.....15 months later we're knee deep in vaccines but it seems they aren't the answer  either!. They don't stop people getting it or passing it on so we're still being seriously controlled in our lives with the horizon (and the goalposts ) being moved further away  every day. The hospitals are half empty in fact and have never been under this purported strain. In fact  some NHS staff have never had it so easy. They certainly won't want to go back to "normal". I know our GPs don't. I  envy the USA  because at least their states can to some extent make their own laws. And the thing is, Christine, do you see those states, like Texas and Florida knee deep in corpses? No. Do  you see massive peaks in infections after the protests in the UK and elsewhere? No. Doesn't it make you wonder? I voted for that fat tyrant Boris Johnson because he was the best of a shambolic bunch but I thought we'd be rid of him after Brexit. I think he's on his way out though now, thank God.

Well, Wolfie, here's the thing: There can't be a 100% tested vaccine yet because the disease hasn't been around long enough. On that point, of course, we all have to realize that we are guinea pigs, but, as I mentioned in the other post ... that was always the case when such diseases appeared.
That there have been a lot of deaths so far cannot be denied either. Belgium has just asked Germany if they can bring people who are severely ill with Covid to us, because the intensive care units in Belgium are completely overloaded. There, the 7-day incidence value is 450.
Of course it is bad that these terrible side effects have occurred, but every year many women who smoke and take the pill die as a result of thrombosis, without anyone calling for the abolition of the pill. All other drugs also have massive side effects. When you read the package inserts, you don't really like taking the stuff anymore.
I am also aware that the vaccines available right now are not yet the ultimate, but it is a start.
I can't say very much about Boris Johnson. I only know that he risked a very big lip at the beginning of the pandemic and hasn't said anything since he himself overcame Covid.

 

[Christine]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb miamijimf:

I hear you Christine, those who volunteer to be vaccinated should be commended, they are taking a small risk with an "emergency approved shot."  But at the same time I have reservations about giving them special rights or coercing everyone to get the shot.  As an American I believe in freedom of choice (with few minor exceptions like wearing seat belts) and don't want to turn my life over to the dictates of the government (even if it seems like it is for the common good).  The US Constitution was written to protect the people against a tyrannical government not to give power to the government.  Fortunately the majority are getting vaccinated and no-shot people are few.  I have confidence that the world is slowly getting a handle on the virus and with most people immune from getting sick the danger will fade.  I suspect that yearly booster shots will be required for a long time.

Although it may have sounded different, I am definitely in favor of allowing each person their freedom of choice, Jim. The basic rights of the human being are a very important good, but exactly these have to be/are strongly restricted and it is ultimately about being able to give these basic rights back to every human being.
I am also glad that many people let themselves be vaccinated voluntarily, but there are unfortunately still too many who refuse it and refer to dubious conspiracy theories.

 

[Christine]

 

 

vor 19 Stunden schrieb vicegirl85:

People are encouraged to report side effects, and it is not difficult to do so.  Every person in the US who is vaccinated signs a consent, and they are given the opportunity to ask questions.  I don't know about other countries, but I can't imagine that people in the UK and Europe don't have to sign anything and are not given an opportunity to ask questions.  I personally encourage anyone who has concerns should discuss vaccination with their own health care provider before going to the vaccine site.  

In Germany, too, you have to sign a consent form and, of course, you have the opportunity to ask questions

 

 

vor 19 Stunden schrieb vicegirl85:

As a healthcare professional, I was able to receive my first dose of the Moderna vaccine in December and the second one in January.  I was happy to be able to receive the vaccine and would do it again if needed.

I received my first vaccine - AstraZenica - in February and will receive the second dose (probably Biontech) in mid May. I was glad to have the opportunity to get vaccined that early and, like you, Vicegirl, I would do it again anytime.

[vicegirl85]

22 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

The clotting problem is serious, but the risk of this kind of clotting is lower than the clotting risk associated with having the disease of COVID-19.  The pauses that were taken have allowed medical experts to find ways of treating the clotting that won't worsen it (the "default" classic anti-clotting drug, heparin, seems to worsen this particular type of clotting).  The pauses also provide a useful cautionary note of possible risk factors, i.e. if I was a female, age 18-49, and partiularly if I was on a hormonal treatment like birth control pills that already is associated with clotting risk, I would probably not choose to take the J&J vaccine, if I had an option.

To add to my comments from yesterday:  initially it was hypothesized that the TTS clotting problem (seen in a few people vaccinated with the J&J vaccine) might have been related to concurrent use of medications that are known to have association with blood clotting, such as birth control pills.  Upon investigation, this was not determined to be a factor.  However: 

Quote

 

Patients with a prior history of an episode of an immune-mediated syndrome characterized by thrombocytopenia and thrombosis, such as heparin-induced thrombocytopenia, should avoid the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine in the immediate aftermath of their illness, CDC staff said in a call with clinicians Tuesday.

Because the etiology of thrombosis and thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) appears similar to heparin-induced thrombocytopenia, patients with a similar immune-mediated syndrome should be offered another FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccine for at least 90-180 days after their illness resolves.

While women under age 50 can receive any authorized COVID-19 vaccine, they have an increased risk of TTS associated with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. CDC staff noted they should "be aware of the rare risk of TTS" and may opt for one of the other authorized vaccines, such as the mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna.

 

This might sound like a load of meaningless medical jargon!  But what I want to stress is that if a person has a history of an auto-immune response to a heparin blood-thinning product that caused low production of thrombocytes (one of the type of blood cells involved in clotting), consult with your healthcare provider for recommendations on COVID-19 vaccines.

[wolfie1996]

If vaccines (so called) are beneficial, why are people cancelling their second dose? And apparently they are.  I don't blame them. Theoretically people here are "informed"- in practice I think they are given the information leaflet AFTER  they're vaccinated so hard luck if you'd have changed your mind after you read it. Some more questions...why are they continuing to base "infection" stats- for what that's worth- on the discredited PCR test? Even its inventor said it was unsuitable for diagnosis. Or on the even more unreliable lateral flow test? Both these tests are virtually guaranteed to grossly over estimate the amount of infected people. And a related question..why do they count every death with in 28 days (or is it 60 now) of a positive test as a "covid death"? There is no logic in doing this. What's more I've read that deaths can be thus certified without a test even being done! Creating false impressions or what?? The result of these false impressions is to create  an atmosphere of fear and panic, when any proposed "solution" would be gratefully embraced without question. Which is exactly what did happen, is it not? First it was loss of freedoms "for a few weeks"..to ease it in. Then these lockdowns became the norm. People were fined for being too far away from their house when exercising or walking the dog! Then it was  everyone wear a mask to encourage those who'd been sheltering back into the shops, remember? Those masks which were designated as useless when this thing first kicked off! This morphed into wearing one to prevent spreading infection. I see idiots walking around in the open air, not even in a crowded place clutching their grubby "comfort blankets " to their face! Wearing them when driving alone in their car! We constructed God knows how many extra "Nightingale hospitals" to "save the NHS from being overwhelmed" and guess  what, they were never used. The hospitals were never overwhelmed. Staff were actually being sent home because they had nothing to do. This isn't the impression you get when you watch the BBC news though! That's the news station  who managed to ignore the million or so protest marchers in London on Saturday! As did msn. They are working to  an agenda, it's painfully obvious, and I for one don't intend to be manipulated to fit it. By the way, what happened to flu??? I'm not saying to anyone, don't get vaccinated or anything else. As long as they in turn respect my right not to do so -without loss of freedoms or quality of life.

[vicegirl85]

I'm not in the UK, so can't speak to some of your questions/ statements.  A few answers:

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

If vaccines (so called) are beneficial, why are people cancelling their second dose? 

Some people are cancelling their second shot because they are upset or concerned about normal side effects such as arm soreness, fatigue, fever, upset stomach, etc.  Others believe that one shot should be enough, and there is debate within the medical community over whether the degree of immunity conferred with one shot of the mRNA vaccines is enough.  People in some cases are fearful due to the reported serious events that have occurred.  Those events are concerning, but there have not been widespread serious side effects associated with any of the vaccines. There are different reasons for different people.  However, the manufacturers developed the vaccines, and the studies that were performed, were based on a 2-shot regime.  The second shot "boosts" the body's ability to respond to the virus.

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

why are they continuing to base "infection" stats- for what that's worth- on the discredited PCR test?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  PCR tests used in the US are considered the gold standard of diagnostic tests for COVID-19.  A person can be infected without having symptoms (being ill).  But, not too many people get tested unless they are having symptoms, unless it is a test required before surgery or before/ after traveling.

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

why do they count every death with in 28 days (or is it 60 now) of a positive test as a "covid death"?

I have not heard of this happening.  But also, it's one thing if the person had a positive test and was symptomatic/ ill, and another thing if no symptoms were present.  The infectious period is considered to be 14 days, but if a person was still ill and symptomatic after 28 days, or had a condition such as kidney, heart, or respiratory failure as a result of COVID-19 infection, a death after that time could still be attributed to COVID.  There was quite a bit of rumor at one point earlier in the pandemic about COVID-19 being listed as cause of death in cases where it could not be demonstrated, but I am doubtful that was actually a widespread problem.

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

any proposed "solution" would be gratefully embraced without question

I don't believe any information about COVID-19--true or false--has been gratefully accepted without question.

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Then these lockdowns became the norm. People were fined for being too far away from their house when exercising or walking the dog! Then it was  everyone wear a mask to encourage those who'd been sheltering back into the shops, remember? Those masks which were designated as useless when this thing first kicked off!

I believe some cities, states, and countries have had stricter restrictions than I have seen here (upper-South of the US).  The fact is that the earlier "lockdowns" did help prevent the healthcare system from being completely overloaded, at least in some places.  Elective surgeries were postponed for up to 2 months.  As you mentioned earlier, some hospitals didn't see a big influx of COVID patients and staff were furloughed due to low census, even nurses.  Other hospitals were overrun (just as we are seeing with India at the moment) and were desperate to hire nurses to care for the hordes of COVID patients.  PPE for the doctors, nurses, housekeepers, etc., who were caring for the patients, was in short supply.  No one, at the time, could be certain what the means of transmission was.  It was believed to be respiratory, because of symptoms, so infectious disease experts urged the public to save medical masks for healthcare workers, who needed to be in close proximity to these sick patients.  It's true that people in many parts of Asia commonly wore masks when in public, so many people thought that they could protect themselves that way.  In the parts of Asia where that is common though, it's more because of pollution in cities.  As time passed, the infectious disease experts changed their minds--remember this was a new disease and we were all learning.  Even healthcare workers, who originally were discouraged from wearing masks unless working directly with a patient whose condition was transmitted by the respiratory route, were encouraged and even required to wear a mask from the time they entered the hospital until they left for the day.  Several studies have been done that demonstrated that even a cloth mask will stop transmission of a large amount of respiratory droplets.  The COVID-19 virus can also spread by the airborne route when tiny particles containing the virus remain suspended in the air.  Reducing the density of crowds will help a person to avoid this situation, and wearing a cloth mask will trap the vapor droplets we expel with talking, singing, breathing, etc., therefore preventing many of the particles from escaping and becoming airborne.

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

We constructed God knows how many extra "Nightingale hospitals" to "save the NHS from being overwhelmed" and guess  what, they were never used.

This was done in some places in the US as well.  The early crush of the pandemic in Italy and in New York City was a warning siren, and public health authorities didn't want to be caught unprepared.  Some temporary hospitals that were built in China were used for several months.  The two that were in my state were not used, either.  They were put together inside of large stadiums, and were later taken out of service, beds and equipment moved out, etc.  I would rather have had it and not needed it, than to need it and not have it.  

Thankfully, although I don't feel the US response was very coordinated, the restrictions and protective measures that were taken, slowed the spread enough initially that we were able to learn and do better as time passed (in treating patients and in understanding how the disease is spread).

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

By the way, what happened to flu???

This is a very interesting situation.  Around the world, when the pandemic of COVID-19 hit, the incidence of flu dropped, particularly when people began staying home, masking in public, and washing hands more frequently.  Flu incidence dropped like a rock.  The 2019-2020 flu season was going along as usual until March or so, and then bam!  Dropped to almost nothing.  Pandemic restrictions were already in place when the 2020-21 flu season began in October in the Northern Hemisphere.  Very, very low incidence of flu this past season--March 31 is considered the official "end" of flu season (Northern Hemisphere again), although there may be the odd case even in July and August.  

It is currently not known if the masking, reduced crowds, etc. caused the low flu incidence, or if the dominant virus (COVID-19) suppressed expression of the flu virus.  I also read recently that flu vaccination incidence was higher than normal for the past flu season.  So there could be several things affecting flu incidence this year.  Infectious disease specialists are studying the phenomenon, although it probably won't be possible to get direct answers, since it's not possible to control all variables. 

Sorry to take up so much space on the forum for this off-topic subject, but as an infection control nurse for the past 10 years, COVID-19 took over my life in the past year.  I retired March 1, but still keep up by daily reading.  However, I'm glad to be out of the day-to-day trenches.