Thoughts on Covid 19

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

That is sad, but I think the Humble family mentioned in the article is doing the right thing by being cautious (I think it's a long way from being circumspect to being paranoid/afraid).

It’s very sad indeed.  At this point in the US, with a surplus of available vaccines, almost no one should be dying, yet…

I’ve read so many tragic stories of families devastated when a loved one died and they’re now pleading for people not to let that happen to them. Newsweek just had a story about a man from Louisiana who died in his early 50’s after saying the vaccine was “poison”.  His family is now asking people in their current community in Texas not to make the same mistake and to get vaccinated “in his memory”.  So completely tragic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/louisiana-man-dies-covid-19-after-calling-vaccines-poison-1610682%3famp=1

These stories are emerging from reputable news sources across the nation not just in some random person’s social media.  There are so many now and it need not happen.

 

[jpaul1]

5 minutes ago, pahonu said:

It’s very sad indeed.  At this point in the US, with a surplus of available vaccines, almost no one should be dying, yet…

I’ve read so many tragic stories of families devastated when a loved one died and they’re now pleading for people not to let that happen to them. Newsweek just had a story about a man from Louisiana who died in his early 50’s after saying the vaccine was “poison”.  His family is now asking people in their current community in Texas not to make the same mistake and to get vaccinated “in his memory”.  So completely tragic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/louisiana-man-dies-covid-19-after-calling-vaccines-poison-1610682%3famp=1

These stories are emerging from reputable news sources across the nation not just in some random person’s social media.  There are so many now and it need not happen.

 

i came across a similar story recently too. a strong anti-vaxx woman got covid, and is now suffering from a long term form of the disease. she has now tuned into a pro-vaccine militant

[Robbie C.]

I dislike militants on either side of the issue, honestly. And I am very concerned about some of the other social and societal changes the whole thing has pushed through or allowed to take place. But for many, including most media outlets, it's easier to stay fixated on vaccines. Lest some get the wrong idea, or make incorrect assumptions, I'm not opposed to vaccination at all. But there are other effects of this whole thing we're only now starting to see...and far too many of them are not good from an individual standpoint.

[pahonu]

38 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I dislike militants on either side of the issue, honestly. And I am very concerned about some of the other social and societal changes the whole thing has pushed through or allowed to take place. But for many, including most media outlets, it's easier to stay fixated on vaccines. Lest some get the wrong idea, or make incorrect assumptions, I'm not opposed to vaccination at all. But there are other effects of this whole thing we're only now starting to see...and far too many of them are not good from an individual standpoint.

I agree, extremism in any form rarely arrives at the best solution.  Not an ideal solution, because I don’t believe that exists, but the best solution that causes least harm for the most possible.  Perhaps the media focuses so much on the vaccine because it is currently “the best tool in the toolbox” so to speak, in dealing with these circumstances we’re all facing?  Nothing is ideal or completely without consequence.  It just seems that there are so many more examples of individuals and families regretting not being vaccinated and losing a loved one, than of regrets about choosing  vaccination.  I have read a few examples of that as well.     
 

I also agree that this pandemic has caused tremendous change in society in ways we’re only beginning to understand.  As an educator I am yet again preparing for a new school year like none before in my 25-year career.  This time however, it is less about survival and more about recovery.  I’m not trying to be hyperbolic, but so many of my students struggled through the last year and a half and will need so much upcoming support to begin to recover.  Sadly, like much in life, there was no perfect solution, but rather as I said above, a choice among various less than ideal options.  
 

In the end, this is where most of the debate lies it seems.

Edited July 17, 2021 by pahonu

[pahonu]

I was just going through some of the health department data from the county I live in, Los Angeles CA.  It is the most populous county in the nation, approaching 11 million people and suffered through a devastating winter surge before the vaccine was available.  Tragically, several of my student lost family members in this past school year and my family lost an elderly neighbor couple we knew closely for over 20 years.  

The numbers:

Currently, over 5.7 million have received at least one vaccination among the entire population.  Over 5 million are fully vaccinated.  Among those old enough to get the vaccine, the percentage is just under 70%.  This all sounds very mundane, I understand, but the next piece of data is truly powerful and quite honestly stunned me.

Among the many hundreds of current covid cases serious enough to require  hospitalization in this very populous county, exactly ZERO are unvaccinated.  The same is true among those who have died in the last several weeks.  Take from it what you will.

Here is the source of data:

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard.htm

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/data/index.htm

[Glades]

13 hours ago, pahonu said:

The numbers:

Currently, over 5.7 million have received at least one vaccination among the entire population.  Over 5 million are fully vaccinated.  Among those old enough to get the vaccine, the percentage is just under 70%.  This all sounds very mundane, I understand, but the next piece of data is truly powerful and quite honestly stunned me.

Among the many hundreds of current covid cases serious enough to require  hospitalization in this very populous county, exactly ZERO are unvaccinated.  The same is true among those who have died in the last several weeks.  Take from it what you will.

Here is the source of data:

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard.htm

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/data/index.htm

Thanks for your links, panhou! And I really appreciate your objectivity.
Unfortunately, I can't find the part where you got the information about the proportion of unvaccinated to hospitalized and dead. Can you help me there please? Maybe the direct link or did I just not find the information on the page?

I also have another link that you might be interested in. To a document of the Israeli Ministry of Health, as I understand it. Israel has already vaccinated very early (until the end of March) about 60% of the population with Pfizer. Israel has 9.3 million inhabitants. Since then, there has just been a little more vaccination.In Israel, from early May to early July, there were more unvaccinated among the hospitalized and critical ill, but also many vaccinated (40 unvaccinated vs. 60 vaccinated among the hospitalized and 20 vs. 23 of the critical ill). According to this, vaccination would protect against critical illness to some extent, but definitly not completely.  That's why I was very surprised by the numbers you and ViceGirl cited for her U.S.

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/news/06072021-04/he/NEWS_Corona_vaccine-eficacy.pdf

The numbers in the table are unvaccinated on the left, vaccinated on the right (2nd dose received more than 1 week ago). The columns are first critical, then hospitalization, symptoms and positive test.

[pahonu]

5 hours ago, Glades said:

Thanks for your links, panhou! And I really appreciate your objectivity.
Unfortunately, I can't find the part where you got the information about the proportion of unvaccinated to hospitalized and dead. Can you help me there please? Maybe the direct link or did I just not find the information on the page?

I also have another link that you might be interested in. To a document of the Israeli Ministry of Health, as I understand it. Israel has already vaccinated very early (until the end of March) about 60% of the population with Pfizer. Israel has 9.3 million inhabitants. Since then, there has just been a little more vaccination.In Israel, from early May to early July, there were more unvaccinated among the hospitalized and critical ill, but also many vaccinated (40 unvaccinated vs. 60 vaccinated among the hospitalized and 20 vs. 23 of the critical ill). According to this, vaccination would protect against critical illness to some extent, but definitly not completely.  That's why I was very surprised by the numbers you and ViceGirl cited for her U.S.

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/news/06072021-04/he/NEWS_Corona_vaccine-eficacy.pdf

The numbers in the table are unvaccinated on the left, vaccinated on the right (2nd dose received more than 1 week ago). The columns are first critical, then hospitalization, symptoms and positive test.

Sorry about that.  The information about the unvaccinated hospitalizations was a quoted statement from the director of LA County Department of Health Services, Dr. Christina Ghaly.  I’ll find the quote and link it.  Thanks for the information on Israel.  I’m about to dive into it. 
 

Edit:

Here’s a local network news station link with her quote and some more detail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7.com/amp/unvaccinated-covid19-los-angeles-county-hospitalizations/10887037/

Being more precise, if someone is being treated in a small private clinic, they would not be included in this statement, so there could be breakthrough cases.  Practically speaking, however, this is referring to all the comprehensive hospitals across the county.  

Edited July 18, 2021 by pahonu

[pahonu]

The Israeli government link above is in Hebrew.

Edited July 18, 2021 by pahonu

[Glades]

1 hour ago, pahonu said:

Here’s a local network news station link with her quote and some more detail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7.com/amp/unvaccinated-covid19-los-angeles-county-hospitalizations/10887037/

First of all, thank you for your link, although this doctor only talked about the hospital admissions of a single day!
A few posts earlier (unfortunately the citation does not work) you had mentioned exact figures that also apply to the entire U.S., if I understand you correctly. Maybe you still know the source?

Sorry that I did not mention that the page is in Hebrew. I try to read official, governmental statistics or research papers in the original. That's why I found this Israeli page from the Ministry of Health. I found it through a German blog postand  I used a translation website for the Israeli page (especially the table itself). But it is Hebrew-German.
What was of interest to me about the table was that severe covid in this case is not limited to unvaccinated people. Although it is hoped that vaccinated people are spared from severe covid. That's all I can see from it. In the end, this means for me that this question has not yet been clarified. So I remain open and look for more exact information.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Glades

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, pahonu said:

The Israeli government link above is in Hebrew.

i started to feel culprit

[Christine]

Am 16.7.2021 um 22:50 schrieb Robbie C.:

The other question given the era might be which Germany?

In principle, you're right, but this photo I saw and the information from my mother-in-law are from the late 50s. So the wall did not exist yet. I also see the photo right in front of me. It was a black and white photograph. It showed a crying child sitting on his mother's lap while a nurse was giving him a vaccination in his arm.

[Robbie C.]

20 minutes ago, Christine said:

In principle, you're right, but this photo I saw and the information from my mother-in-law are from the late 50s. So the wall did not exist yet. I also see the photo right in front of me. It was a black and white photograph. It showed a crying child sitting on his mother's lap while a nurse was giving him a vaccination in his arm.

I wasn't talking about the Wall as much as I was the existence of East and West Germany (the DDR and BRD, if I remember the abbreviations correctly). I would tend to think mandatory or compulsory vaccinations would have been easier to conduct and manage in East Germany all things considered.

[wolfie1996]

23 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

96% of the french in hospital right now are unvaccinated. 4% are with one dose of vaccine

@wolfie1996i don't get your point. are you trying to say that the claimed deads by covid are lies?

Here's a view of French protests (the ones you told me don't exist) and there are many more. And in answer to your question, the so called covid deaths are categorised as such if the dead person tested positive (with an iffy test )  within 28 days of the death (or sometimes hadn't been tested at all) even if they died knocked down by a bus. Very scientific I don't think. No autopsies now of course. Not allowed. Many people have complained that their relatives were put down as having died of covid when in fact it was something different. But it was important to  artificially inflate the covid death figures to create the  appropriate fear and panic response, particularly in the hard of thinking. It obviously worked.

[Christine]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Robbie C.:

I wasn't talking about the Wall as much as I was the existence of East and West Germany (the DDR and BRD, if I remember the abbreviations correctly). I would tend to think mandatory or compulsory vaccinations would have been easier to conduct and manage in East Germany all things considered.

Of course, this is quite possible.

[jpaul1]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Here's a view of French protests (the ones you told me don't exist) and there are many more. And in answer to your question, the so called covid deaths are categorised as such if the dead person tested positive (with an iffy test )  within 28 days of the death (or sometimes hadn't been tested at all) even if they died knocked down by a bus. Very scientific I don't think. No autopsies now of course. Not allowed. Many people have complained that their relatives were put down as having died of covid when in fact it was something different. But it was important to  artificially inflate the covid death figures to create the  appropriate fear and panic response, particularly in the hard of thinking. It obviously worked.

as weird as it may sound what you see on the image is a (small) minority. and what you don't see as the shot is from afar, it's that some of the people that are in the background were carrying auchwitz images, some even wearing yellow stars (jew). which personnally i find shocking

regarding your incredulity regarding the politics, and the scientists i just don't get it. i mean politics were freely elected, scientists made brilliant careers, if you can't trust these, who can you trust. as i said highest politics, and highest scientists of Italy, Germany, France, USA are all lying. i don't get it

[pahonu]

6 hours ago, Glades said:

First of all, thank you for your link, although this doctor only talked about the hospital admissions of a single day!
A few posts earlier (unfortunately the citation does not work) you had mentioned exact figures that also apply to the entire U.S., if I understand you correctly. Maybe you still know the source?

Sorry that I did not mention that the page is in Hebrew. I try to read official, governmental statistics or research papers in the original. That's why I found this Israeli page from the Ministry of Health. I found it through a German blog postand  I used a translation website for the Israeli page (especially the table itself). But it is Hebrew-German.
What was of interest to me about the table was that severe covid in this case is not limited to unvaccinated people. Although it is hoped that vaccinated people are spared from severe covid. That's all I can see from it. In the end, this means for me that this question has not yet been clarified. So I remain open and look for more exact information.

Her quote says “to date”, meaning all admissions in the current surge up until that date, which was Friday the 16th.

"To date, we have not had a patient admitted to a DHS hospital who has been fully vaccinated with either the J&J, Pfizer or Moderna vaccine," Dr. Ghaly, director of the Los Angeles County Department of Health Services, said Tuesday. "Every single patient that we've admitted for COVID has been not yet fully vaccinated."

 

There have been several other articles over the last few days including today’s Wall Street Journal describing a “new surge of the unvaccinated”.

Here’s a CNN story with a quote from Dr. Rochelle Walensky of the CDC describing 99% of US covid deaths in June as being unvaccinated individuals.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/13/health/us-coronavirus-tuesday/index.html
 

I’ll keep an eye out for more.

No worries about the document being in Hebrew. 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by pahonu

[wolfie1996]

19 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

as weird as it may sound what you see on the image is a (small) minority. and what you don't see as the shot is from afar, it's that some of the people that are in the background were carrying auchwitz images, some even wearing yellow stars (jew). which personnally i find shocking

regarding your incredulity regarding the politics, and the scientists i just don't get it. i mean politics were freely elected, scientists made brilliant careers, if you can't trust these, who can you trust. as i said highest politics, and highest scientists of Italy, Germany, France, USA are all lying. i don't get it

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/emmanuel-macron-shamed-into-embarrassing-u-turn-after-violence-erupts-on-french-streets/ar-AAMinqq?li=AAnZ9Ug             

A U turn I think Maybe we should invite some of them over here.

[Christine]

I want to share some of my thoughts with you now. Of course, not everyone will agree with me, but I don't expect them to.
Even if the opponents of vaccination see it differently, I am convinced that it is the only true possibility to be able to lead a normal life again someday. Of course, we will need follow-up vaccinations, just as we do with the flu, polio, and other diseases.
As with any drug, there will be side effects and sometimes someone will die. That's terrible and shouldn't happen, but it does with a great many medications every day without anyone going on the barricades about it.
It was also never said that you can't get Covid 19 after vaccination. The statement was that the course will be milder and in most cases hospitalization with ventilation will not be necessary.
Those who see it differently and are against vaccination are welcome to be. It is their personal decision, but I am simply fed up with people who try to incite others, who downright attack those who consider vaccination important.

I, for one, will do everything that I consider important for me to be able to walk around without a mask again one day.

 

[jpaul1]

@wolfie1996i don't consider msn as a reliable source. sometimes i even saw paparazzi papers quoted as 'news'. anti vaccine are very minoritary here in France and here's the proof. the article says 110k french gone into the streets against the sanitary pass. that's the numbers i got here too. now the pro vaccine. since Macron announcement of the sanitary pass (hear vaccine mandatory) more than 3 millions french booked an apointment to get vaccinated. to this you can add 30 millions who got 2 doses, and 37 millions who got one. i don't recall how much we are here exactly lol, but we are a population of something 67 millions. so these 110k are quite microscopic to be honest

here french government data. 55% of the population has at least one injection (edited thanks to Glades)

Edited July 19, 2021 by jpaul1

[Glades]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

here french government data. 99.7% of the population has at least one injection

 

Maybe you misunderstood something? As I understand it, about 45% of the French are unvaccinated. About 55% have received at least 1 vaccination and about 45% have received 2 vaccinations, with the 55% group comprising the 45% with 2 vaccinations. It´s a bit misleading, but I guess that also in France e.g. almost no children under 12 are vaccinated? That alone would exclude 99% vaccinated of the French.

If anyone is interested in worldwide data around Corona, I can recommend "Our World in Data". This time it is not Hebrew ;-), not even German, but English:
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=~OWID_WRL

You can select the countries you are interested in and get the data related to 1 million inhabitants. Unfortunately, as far as I see it, you only get the U.S. data for the entire U.S., not for the individual states.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Glades

[Glades]

21 hours ago, pahonu said:

Her quote says “to date”, meaning all admissions in the current surge up until that date, which was Friday the 16th.

"To date, we have not had a patient admitted to a DHS hospital who has been fully vaccinated with either the J&J, Pfizer or Moderna vaccine," Dr. Ghaly, director of the Los Angeles County Department of Health Services, said Tuesday. "Every single patient that we've admitted for COVID has been not yet fully vaccinated."

 

There have been several other articles over the last few days including today’s Wall Street Journal describing a “new surge of the unvaccinated”.

Here’s a CNN story with a quote from Dr. Rochelle Walensky of the CDC describing 99% of US covid deaths in June as being unvaccinated individuals.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/13/health/us-coronavirus-tuesday/index.html
 

I’ll keep an eye out for more.

No worries about the document being in Hebrew.

Pahonu, thank you very much for your transscription. I understood "today" instead of "to date"...

This is really amazing! There must be some differences.
For example, in Israel only (?) Pfizer was vaccinated, it was a long time ago (a large part of Israelis who are vaccinated 2 times today, were also at the end of March), different variants, ...?

[jpaul1]

absolutely, sorry for the misleading. to be honest i knew i posted something wrong. but as i had a long day, it took a moment for the brain to reconnect . still 60% have, or plan to get the vaccine. polls say that 60% of the french are also ok for the sanitary pass.

regarding the 'revolutionnaries' wolfie1996 quote often, i'm not going to discuss endlessly about that. if you can't realize that uprising leads to dictatorship, i don't know what to say

the french live in a plain democracy, they can choose their politics, they can go and have fair trials if they think the politics are unfair. we live into a country where a mouse can win against the bear. wishes of uprising is pure madness

[pahonu]

3 hours ago, Glades said:

Pahonu, thank you very much for your transscription. I understood "today" instead of "to date"...

This is really amazing! There must be some differences.
For example, in Israel only (?) Pfizer was vaccinated, it was a long time ago (a large part of Israelis who are vaccinated 2 times today, were also at the end of March), different variants, ...?

No need for thanks. I think it’s important to have dispassionate and logic-based discussions about the topic. 

We have three approved vaccines in the US so that’s certainly a difference. I would also suspect that, because of LA’s tragically huge winter surge, there are many people who also have antibodies even if they aren’t fully vaccinated which would help get closer to herd immunity.  Even still, the  number of positive cases here is sadly growing very quickly again.  The difference is, of all those new positive tests, the people getting hospitalized and dying are essentially all unvaccinated, and I would also suspect haven’t contracted it before.

[apocalypse]

We had record low death rate 2020 in Finland and virtually nobody has died of COVID-19 since November. But we have crazy COVID-19 restrictions still in place. 

It's a nasty virus I'm sure but many people here have been questioning the lockdowns and restrictions heavily. We have two major state-driven scientific labs who made two researches on face masks in 2020 and found ZERO proof that they help with virus prevention. Still we have "mask recommendations" in public transportations. People are very puzzled and many are quite skeptical.

This is how it is here other side of the world (from the US). 

 

[Christine]

About wearing a mask: The scientists say that less people got ill on flue since we all war masks and wear the distance. Of course it´s great that nobody died because of Covid in such a long time.
Here in Germany we only need to wear masks in rooms and queues and of course when he get in a close contact to other people. These are only little restrictions and I can live quiet good with it.