Thoughts on Covid 19

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

I am only still of the opinion that someone who denies the disease should please bear all the costs incurred in case of illness.

Perhaps that is beginning to come true here in the US.  I recently read a Washington Post article about the rising number of US industries, including a major airline, that are requiring unvaccinated employees to pay a higher premium for their healthcare insurance than those who are vaccinated.  It fits in legally with the wellness programs that have been developed over the last couple of decades which allow for variable premiums for workers if they quit smoking, lose weight, etc….  
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/08/27/cost-of-being-unvaccinated/

[Christine]

In Germany, some states now have something called triage. It is related to the overcrowding of hospitals and intensive care units and means that doctors decide which patient gets a bed and which does not. Thanks to unvaccinated covid patients, it has unfortunately already happened that, for example, a heart attack patient did not get a bed and died because the paramedics first had to call around to find out where they could take the patient. Now the heart attack patient would get the bed and the unvaccinated covid sufferer would not.

[Ferrariman]

2 hours ago, pahonu said:

Perhaps that is beginning to come true here in the US.  I recently read a Washington Post article about the rising number of US industries, including a major airline, that are requiring unvaccinated employees to pay a higher premium for their healthcare insurance than those who are vaccinated.  It fits in legally with the wellness programs that have been developed over the last couple of decades which allow for variable premiums for workers if they quit smoking, lose weight, etc….  
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/08/27/cost-of-being-unvaccinated/

Maybe they should give discounts to those of us who are vaccinated.

[Tom]

Here in Austria we are in lockdown again and we get a mandatory vaccination obligation per law in February. Means people who refuse vaccines without proven medical reason will be subject to high fines or jail if they can’t pay.
 

Background: after months of fruitless recommendations by experts 30% are still unvaccinated although vaccines are free and are available everywhere even without appointments. In some states risk for students to get infected in school classes are up to 40% but politicians keep schools open in lockdown.

Also on discussion: non vaccinated people who end up in hospital and ICUs could be forced to pay part of the treatment themselves (in Austria we have full coverage health insurance for everyone but currently crucial operations for cancer patients or heart diseases have to be postponed for months because ICUs are 80% full with unvaccinated people). Some hospitals have to fly out patients to other hospitals already , borrow high end equipment from others and rescue helicopters have to fly around hours to find free emergency beds.

 

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

Maybe they should give discounts to those of us who are vaccinated.

Never happen.

[pahonu]

32 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Never happen.

I agree in the literal sense, but not having to pay a higher premium for those vaccinated like we are, is ultimately a net savings.  The airline I read about was Delta and they are set to begin charging $200 a month more for unvaccinated employees.  $2400 a year is nothing to scoff at.  The dollar has spoken before.  
 

My school had several vaccine holdouts one of whom flat out said in August that he wasn’t going to lose his job over it.  He’s now vaccinated as are others, minus the one I mentioned earlier in this thread.  That individual has been on unpaid administrative leave for close to two months now.  I also just learned recently that his wife works at another school in the district, though not as a teacher, and is also out.  How long can they go without pay?  I feel they may be working elsewhere, as a neighboring county is less strict in its health department requirements.

[James]

11 hours ago, Tom said:

Here in Austria we are in lockdown again and we get a mandatory vaccination obligation per law in February. Means people who refuse vaccines without proven medical reason will be subject to high fines or jail if they can’t pay.

Isn't that illegal against human rights or something?

[Ferrariman]

11 hours ago, Tom said:

Here in Austria we are in lockdown again and we get a mandatory vaccination obligation per law in February. Means people who refuse vaccines without proven medical reason will be subject to high fines or jail if they can’t pay.

...and how many lockdowns is this Tom?   2? 3? 4?  We keep opening up and loosening restrictions every time the numbers start to look good.  When are we going to learn?  Isn't doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result the definition of insanity?

[Tom]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb James:

Isn't that illegal against human rights or something?

No. Legal. All checked by constitution and EMRK (European Human rights convention). It’s an emergency health measure. And we had an obligation to vaccinate already in the 70s against pox and no one protested against it.

what we see in Europe now is organized fake news protesters against vaccination that work with the same ideology like the Trump supporters in the US.

General tone in politics and popularition as a whole is now that in a democracy a 20% minority may not impose danger and harm (financial, health) on 80% majority. As said: Our hospital system is collapsing due to 80% unvaccinated blocking everyone else from normal medical treatment.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Ferrariman:

...and how many lockdowns is this Tom?   2? 3? 4?  We keep opening up and loosening restrictions every time the numbers start to look good.  When are we going to learn?  Isn't doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result the definition of insanity?

This is the 4th in Austria and Numbers are so Bad like never before. BTW Israel has strict vaccination policy and high percentage but had 4 LDs already and might need a 5th one soon.

[Robbie C.]

13 hours ago, pahonu said:

I agree in the literal sense, but not having to pay a higher premium for those vaccinated like we are, is ultimately a net savings.  The airline I read about was Delta and they are set to begin charging $200 a month more for unvaccinated employees.  $2400 a year is nothing to scoff at.  The dollar has spoken before.  
 

My school had several vaccine holdouts one of whom flat out said in August that he wasn’t going to lose his job over it.  He’s now vaccinated as are others, minus the one I mentioned earlier in this thread.  That individual has been on unpaid administrative leave for close to two months now.  I also just learned recently that his wife works at another school in the district, though not as a teacher, and is also out.  How long can they go without pay?  I feel they may be working elsewhere, as a neighboring county is less strict in its health department requirements.

My point was they're not going to give DISCOUNTS to anyone who's done the "right thing." Penalizing others is one thing...rewarding good behavior is another. Witness the fetish for testing everyone no matter how fully loaded with vaccine they are.

[pahonu]

30 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

My point was they're not going to give DISCOUNTS to anyone who's done the "right thing." Penalizing others is one thing...rewarding good behavior is another. Witness the fetish for testing everyone no matter how fully loaded with vaccine they are.

I would be stunned by any discount in healthcare.  These costs seem to be ever rising, sadly at a rate higher than even these high inflationary times.  Interestingly, the legal argument behind wellness programs is that no one is penalized, but rather those who participate get lower rates for quitting smoking, etc….   So I suppose it’s how one looks at it.  
 

I think we might see this in the future of healthcare markets.  For example, my district announces an increase to our healthcare contribution, which has happened more than once in the last 25 years.  If they then further offered a lower rate for being vaccinated, it would meet the legal standard for wellness programs.  
 

This is all really irrelevant for educators because we already have many legal requirements for vaccinations, TB testing, etc….  The vaccine holdouts never seem to consider that all these requirements are legal and they have complied, or they wouldn’t have the job in the first place.  Private industry is a different case all together.

[Ferrariman]

Today, Toronto, Canada has begun vaccinations for ages 5 to 11.  50,000 appointments are available and 36,000 have already been booked.  They’ve been interviewing some of the children, asking how they feel about it. The majority said they want the shot so they can do more things and get together with family and friends. Seems like some adults could learn from their children!

[Ferrariman]

Here we go again! 

[Dadrian]

1 hour ago, Ferrariman said:

Here we go again! 

With?

[Ferrariman]

Another COVID wave.

[AndrewRemington]

2 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

Here we go again! 

Like a drifter, we were born to walk alone.

[Dadrian]

9 minutes ago, AndrewRemington said:

Like a drifter, we were born to walk alone.

Too soon  

[jpaul1]

Will get my 3rd dose on monday. the rendez-vous was super fast here. no waiting. I'm also glad governments around the world are heading toward a forced vaccination policy. I stop my post here

[pahonu]

More corporations are taking the economic incentive route here in the US.  For example, Kroger, a very large grocery chain, has added a monthly increase for the health benefits of unvaccinated employees.  They also offer paid leave for those who test positive for Covid, but only if they are vaccinated.  I read about several others also.  We’ll see how that effects vaccination rates.  
 

Also, the first termination proceedings in LA County Fire and LAPD happened recently.  It wasn’t as large a number as many anticipated.  Many vaccinated in the last weeks before the deadlines arrived.  The same is true in my school district.  I know of several teachers who were hold outs but not willing to lose their job and are now vaccinated.  As I mentioned before, one staff member not only refused vaccination but also weekly testing.  He’s been gone about two months now.

[Ferrariman]

7 minutes ago, pahonu said:

Also, the first termination proceedings in LA County Fire and LAPD happened recently.  It wasn’t as large a number as many anticipated.  Many vaccinated in the last weeks before the deadlines arrived.  The same is true in my school district.  I know of several teachers who were hold outs but not willing to lose their job and are now vaccinated.  As I mentioned before, one staff member not only refused vaccination but also weekly testing.  He’s been gone about two months now.

Police or Fire is a tough career to lose!  I wonder if they also lose their pension?   and all because they won't take a little shot in the arm.  Very foolish.   At least the threat of termination has persuaded some to get vaccinated. 

I know many don't agree with mandates but as the saying goes, desperate times calls for desperate measures.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Ferrariman said:

Police or Fire is a tough career to lose!  I wonder if they also lose their pension?   and all because they won't take a little shot in the arm.  Very foolish.   At least the threat of termination has persuaded some to get vaccinated. 

I know many don't agree with mandates but as the saying goes, desperate times calls for desperate measures.

I’m not sure about their pensions, but they wouldn’t lose any service time, I would think.  Whether they reach maximum pension benefits is another question.  Perhaps some of them were very close to that maximum.

Something similar has been happening in education.  Teachers very close to maximum benefits in both age and service have been retiring one or two years early as the pandemic continues.  They lose more than a small amount of their benefit, but have made that choice for health reasons typically.  

Five teachers at my wife’s and my high schools left one or two years early.  A member of my own department is now looking at going a year early after a second school year of incredible change.

[fakespyder]

16 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

Another COVID wave.

Just in time for christmas.

We're 93% vaccinated so hopefully the hospitalization will remain at manageable levels.

It does have me reconsidering my family get togethers.

Even though we're all vaccinated I don't want to be the one to unknowingly infect my loved ones. I know we still have to live our lives though, so something's got to give.

Crap just never ends.

[Augusta]

21 hours ago, AndrewRemington said:

Like a drifter, we were born to walk alone.

UUGH!  While I'm fine with the song, that 80's video from Whitesnake always gets my vote as the second most "videos-completely-disconnected-and-unrelated-to-song" music video in american history.  

But perhaps you're right.  This is simple math.  Take the small steps every week to protect and nurture OTHERS (the physical distancing, the virtual telecom to bridge the distancing,  the grocery shopping for those who can't risk going to the stores themselves, the surface cleaning for them and for your own children, the spending more time with home hobbies and pets and kids, and yes the face covering,...) do these things without laziness or loss of purpose, and you will STARVE covid from multiplying its victims.  With or without a vaccine to argue about. 

...Don't take these small steps earnestly enough, and you help carry the covid around to everyone else, whether you yourself get sick or not, and this hungry germ, eager to keep alive, gets to use everyone as the chemistry lab to produce the next version of itself, and put us back on the carousel.

[Ferrariman]

25 minutes ago, Augusta said:

But perhaps you're right.  This is simple math.  Take the small steps every week to protect and nurture OTHERS (the physical distancing, the virtual telecom to bridge the distancing,  the grocery shopping for those who can't risk going to the stores themselves, the surface cleaning for them and for your own children, the spending more time with home hobbies and pets and kids, and yes the face covering,...) do these things without laziness or loss of purpose, and you will STARVE covid from multiplying its victims.  With or without a vaccine to argue about. 

...Don't take these small steps earnestly enough, and you help carry the covid around to everyone else, whether you yourself get sick or not, and this hungry germ, eager to keep alive, gets to use everyone as the chemistry lab to produce the next version of itself, and put us back on the carousel.

Amen.  I'm by no means an expert but I didn't need a crystal ball to know that when you start packing stadiums to capacity and opening up restaurants, and theaters that the numbers were going to go up.   I've often said. "How many times are we going to do this?!"   I'm usually a fairly optimistic person but the more this lingers on, the more I feel like we'll never see the end of it. 

And sorry but we can thank all those people who think it's all a hoax or don't follow a few simple rules that you've listed above.